Measuring the Brim and the Crown?

[Red McCutcheon]

I've got a Dobbs Panama that has been through the wars, and it's time for a replacement. I'd like to replace this 2007 model with a Panama that has a slightly lower crown and slightly smaller brim. These will be prime criteria. So what is the proper method for measuring the brim and crown so I'll have the baseline for my new hat?

Thanks in advance, fellas.

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

The PROPER method for measuring the brim and crown is to use a ruler. Just measure the front, back, and sides on the brim from the edge to the ribbon. Dimensional Brims will have a different front and back measurement from the side measurement. Before you do anything to the hat, measure the crown height with the hat as currently creased, front back, and highest point, also write down what the crease is currently (take a picture). De-crease the crown to an open crown and measure from the highest point to the point where the brim starts. This is important for the hatter to know, since this is how much crown to leave.

Note that different creases use up more or less of the crown. The Tear drop crease seems to take up a lot of felt / straw real estate. The common Indy crease takes up a little less, a Homburg probably less than that, and a flat top / Gambler the least.

Do you want the same crease on your new hat?

Hope this helps.

 

[Red McCutcheon]

Much obliged, 1961.

I did most of what you said, and here are the measurements: brim (2 7/8" all the way around); crown (4 1/4" in front, 4 3/4" at apex, 4" in back). The hat has a teardrop crease with a modest pinch.

I like the style of hat and will probably stick with something similar, although, as I said, with a bit less crown and brim. Heck, I might even stick with Dobbs. I'm really not in the market for a custom lid right now.

PS--My current Panama went for a prolonged dunk in the Cape May, New Jersey surf some time ago. I suppose that might have shrunk and distorted the hat.

 

[scottyrocks]

Keep in mind that if you are trying to replicate a hat, the shape of the block it will be made on will play a significant role. Height, taper, dome shape, etc, will affect the final look of the hat. This is why you must, I feel, open up your current hat (push out the crease) and get a good look at the shape of the hat as it os now, and then communicate this to whomever is making your new hat, or, for your own self when shopping for a factory-made hat.

 

[Red McCutcheon]

Not really trying to replicate, Scotty. Just looking for a hat that is roughly similar to what I've currently got, but with a less dramatic crown and brim.

 

[danofarlington]

Brims are easy to measure, but measuring crowns always baffles me.

 

[Mario]

Brims are easy to measure, but measuring crowns always baffles me.

Why is that?

 

[RBH]

A Fedora Lounge search turned up this thread.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?48566-Measuring-the-crown&

Now if it helps is a whole other matter. But use a search... the answers are out there.

 

[job]

Chances are that Dobbs will have the same hat. It probably has the same blocking like most of there hats.

 

[Chuck Naill]

Hi

De-crease the crown to an open crown and measure from the highest point to the point where the brim starts. .

Did you mean to say increase to open crown?

 

[gtdean48]

Did you mean to say increase to open crown?

Think he meant = "UN-crease" as in remove the crease to return to open crown.....

 

[danofarlington]

Why is that?

I never know what is the real height--the open crown height, or if creased, the front height, or the back height. I could measure one of those heights, but then I wouldn't have any confidence that the height I picked, is the same as what somebody else is talking about. Brim width though is easy.

 

[Mystic]

Think he meant = "UN-crease" as in remove the crease to return to open crown.....

This may sound silly and un-necessary.....but, with all the various people, ages, different levels of hat experience and also Hat Slang.........
along with the rapidly increasing of new people joining the Lounge.....

maybe the bartenders and a few knowledgeable Loungers that reguarly give help, advice and guidance to fellow Loungers and newbies should put together a "FL Hat Glossary" sticky thread.

So that everyone could be on the same page as to the terminology used on the Lounge.

Just an off-topic thought.......:yo:

 

[dnjan]

I've got a Dobbs Panama that has been through the wars, and it's time for a replacement. I'd like to replace this 2007 model with a Panama that has a slightly lower crown and slightly smaller brim. These will be prime criteria. So what is the proper method for measuring the brim and crown so I'll have the baseline for my new hat?

Thanks in advance, fellas.

Is there much free-space between the top of your head and the underside of the crown, when worn? If not, you may not be able to decrease the crown much.
My favourite straw has a simple homburg centre-dent, and though it looks like it has a lot of crown the inside just barely touches my hair.

 

[Red McCutcheon]

Chances are that Dobbs will have the same hat. It probably has the same blocking like most of there hats.

I don't think they make it anymore, and I can't remember what Dobbs called it. It's the same hat I'm wearing in my avatar, by the by.

 

[Red McCutcheon]

Is there much free-space between the top of your head and the underside of the crown, when worn? If not, you may not be able to decrease the crown much.
My favourite straw has a simple homburg centre-dent, and though it looks like it has a lot of crown the inside just barely touches my hair.

I've done a fair amount of searching and it seems that 4" is the standard height for a Panama these days. So I guess that's what I'll be going with.

 

[tonyb]

The challenge in replicating straws is that their finished creases (or bashes, or whatever you wanna call 'em) are defined by the shaped blocks on which they are formed. The crease is pressed into them, on the block, with a corresponding piece called a tipper.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating ...

The repertoire of a custom hatter working in straws is limited by his blocks. He may be able to make a hat with a crown shape you really dig, but maybe he can't make a lookalike hat for you because he has that particular block only in a size three sizes removed from yours. While there are little tricks to go up or down a size or so, he can't make a size 7 3/4 hat on a 7 1/4 block.

He is also limited by what the straw bodies give him to work with. They are only so big (or small). Sometimes he just can't get a customer as much (or as little) brim width as he wants, along with so much (or little) crown height. This is especially troublesome on either end of the size scale.

But that's all part of what's cool about straws, though, especially the ones coming out of small custom hat shops. The bodies are woven by hand by Ecuadorian villagers, so no two are quite identical, and then the hat finisher (aka hatter) is often working with blocks and flanges pushing 100 years old, in styles that nothing made in more recent times quite replicates. So the guy who ends up with such a hat atop his head can be absolutely confident he won't see its twin on his sunny day trip to the horse track.

 

[LoveMyHats2]

I have to say you explain so very much, tonyb, and in looking at straws or panama hats, there are some that may look alike but as you say would not be exact. I have wanted to have a custom panama or straw hat to be made like a style Frank Sinatra wore, real 1950's looking (similar to a production hat called the Bishop) but with more height to it, in a color that is natural straw (non white) sand. The real question would be, if a hat maker would be able to bring the crown up a bit on a block to increase the height?

 

[RBH]

......maybe the bartenders and a few knowledgeable Loungers that reguarly give help, advice and guidance to fellow Loungers and newbies should put together a "FL Hat Glossary" sticky thread.

So that everyone could be on the same page as to the terminology used on the Lounge.
.......:yo:

That would be great if anyone would use it.
You can tell from the questions... multi photo repost... and the numerous same thread topics that very few use the stickys.
It is almost a waste of time for us bartenders to take the time and do all the work.

 

[tonyb]

I have to say you explain so very much, tonyb, and in looking at straws or panama hats, there are some that may look alike but as you say would not be exact. I have wanted to have a custom panama or straw hat to be made like a style Frank Sinatra wore, real 1950's looking (similar to a production hat called the Bishop) but with more height to it, in a color that is natural straw (non white) sand. The real question would be, if a hat maker would be able to bring the crown up a bit on a block to increase the height?

My suggestion is that you find a photo of Old Blue Eyes in such a hat (or a hat close enough to what you have in mind) and email it to a hatter who might be well equipped for the task, along with your description of how a hat you'd really dig might differ from the pictured lid. (That hatter wouldn't be me, alas.) If you wish, I could recommend a couple such hatters. I don't know for certain that they could get you want you want, but they very well may. Unless the hatter just got unusually lucky (not likely, that) acquiring blocks for straws came at considerable hassle and/or expense, so the hatter is of course looking to amortize the purchase.