Made in China - Monarch A-2 repros

[tonypaj]

This post really is not a post, as I buy my leather jackets where I buy them (unnamed location) for the quality of the work, the service, and multitude of reasons that cannot be mentioned.

As far as these jackets go, I refrain from commenting too much due to lack of information and for reasons that cannot be mentioned. Based on pictures I personally would choose a used Aero/ELC rather than one of these jackets.

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

thank you 442RCT,

i'm interested in their A-1 leather jacket,so can you provide me a link about it please?

Sgt.,
if I can offer you an advice, probably you know that A1's knock-offs aren't rare in Italy;
(many of them are manufactured in India, if Navin is reading )
while mosts are obviously quite distant from originals in terms of styling, materials etc. (they're made for generic public wanting something pratical to wear, the 99% of them doesn't even know it was a flight jacket of sort) I have a friend who managed to find, in a local market, a leather A1 which is perfectly adherent to the look of those of the '30s:
good leather, nice styling (not "baggy") and fits and looks better than the one in the Taobao link.

And, it costs a fraction of the price of the chinese one.
So, it's all a matter of searching and browsing around..

PS
I noticed in the Taobao link that they're offering also some kind of "Aero-looking jacket": half-belt (huge!), tartan lining, storm-cuffs, and even a label with a plane on it...

Ciao!

 

[saucerfiend]

The original "Monarch" jacket shots are beautiful. However, I'd like to see a pic of the collar snapped for reference. The grain is incredible. But, lets remember that this jacket is 65+ years old and I'm certain it wasn't handed out by the Quartermaster looking like this. Many years of break-in, I'd say.

Brian

 

[aswatland]

The original "Monarch" jacket shots are beautiful. However, I'd like to see a pic of the collar snapped for reference. The grain is incredible. But, lets remember that this jacket is 65+ years old and I'm certain it wasn't handed out by the Quartermaster looking like this. Many years of break-in, I'd say.

Brian

This Monarch is most likely not that far removed from the condition it was handed out by the QM.The jacket is in superb condition suggesting limited wear in the war. Heavily worn A2s usually have lining issues, replaced knits and separation on the male side of the zipper. The horse hide used for the Monarch was of great character when the jacket was made and certainly developed even more over time.

 

[saucerfiend]

Point taken. But, I'd still like to see pics of the snapped coolar showing it's distinctive shape.

Brian

 

[aswatland]

Point taken. But, I'd still like to see pics of the snapped coolar showing it's distinctive shape.

Brian

Here are a couple of shots of Monarchs (not mine this time!) with the collar snapped down.

 

[saucerfiend]

Thanks, Andrew! Is it just the long poity collar that makes this a Monarch?
That's what I see.

Brian

 

[aswatland]

Yes the long collar with rounded points is one of the characteristics but others are

• Shoulder seam centered under the epaulette.
• Softly rounded pocket flaps.
• Rotated inset sleeve seam.
• Collar snap backs are not riveted through the lining.

The Monarch is the only A2 to have a blackened brass Talon zipper. No repro maker gets this feature correct.

 

[saucerfiend]

I think the Chinese repro has the pointy collar. At least it shows on close-up shots of the collar unsnapped. The linens are 65% wool and 35% rayon, I found out. It still looks like a real nice generic A-2, being trim fitting.
I quess Speedbird is right. The shouldn't have the "Monarch" name on it. I think the hide they use will show Character in time. At least this is what some of the Chinese writing says. BTW, any chance of getting those pics of the "Werber" that Chapman sent you. Might as well see yours, being that I won't be getting one, as he very rudely cancelled my order after waiting for a month, without a reason.

Brian

 

[BellyTank]

I haven't dealt with this eBay vendor before but I don't like the look of the jacket, anyway.


B
T

 

[Speedbird]

well, that ruins that theory! BT, I thought you might know the vendor/manufacturer because of the other stuff he sells. But HJ and CP have at least confirmed the service is good and other products are satisfactory.

We are no nearer to knowing if this jacket is any good or not. We know it looks rubbish - I hope poor photography accounts for much of that. We know it is a rubbish copy of a Monarch in many ways - we knew that very early on and it has been comprehensively demonstrated to be so since. I am amazed no one has mentioned the glaring error on the label - it reads OWG .... not DWG ... I spotted that when I did the first comparison to the original on acmedepot. You can see why that might happen though - I couldn't guarantee to copy Chinese characters 100% - a slight misplacement of a single stroke renders the character incomprehensible or changes its meaning completely. It's just as hard for an Arabic or Chinese native speaker to copy the English alphabet.

It's not even very, very cheap. It does have some features like the sewn through hanger, decent hide thickness, good stitching and finish that set it apart from mass-produced low end stuff. We will never know the rest until I or someone else actually buys it, breaks it in and evaluates it for what it is: a mid priced generic A-2 repro.

Let's wait and see if anyone plucks up the courage to get one of these jackets and give it a test run.

 

[jon z]

Jacket on a human

I wouldn't want to order till I saw one or more of these jackets
worn by a human.

The guy wearing the jacket in this link which was put up in the 2nd post of this thread looks a pretty convincing human to me.

http://translate.google.com/transla...300c7c5.htm&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com

 

[Edward]

While clearly not a fully accurate repro, going by the photos this looks like a much more period accurate generic-A2 (thinking 'house style' as opposed to 'contact repro') than we would normally see in that price band. If the quality of the jacket is good as a garment, I wuld be tempted.... the killer, of course, would be postage, possible customs fees.... etc. I'd love to see what one of these would sell for on the Chinese market. (Out there, the average wage is much, much lower. Many things are much cheaper than here in Europe, but not everything. I know iPods, for instance, are about the same price as they are here in the UK, making them very pricey relative to the local economy).

I'm happy with the one, accurate ELC Roughwear repro I have; the other jackets I want now are more of a civilan style. That said, if something good came up at the right price.... Where I could be tempted by a reasonable A2 at a lower price would be for a Flying Tigers themed jacket... I do quite fancy a jacket complete with the logos, blood chits.... the works. Thing is, I'm not sure how often I'd wear it (just as a fedora screams 'Indy' to so many, a badged A2 is, I think, likely to be branded Top Gun, a film I loathe and would i[]really[/i] not want to be associated with). That being the case, I'd not want to be pouring top-dollar money into it....

Where a jacket like this could sell well, I think, would be to folks who want a jacket that is generically accurate to the period, i.e. a jacket that could have been a commercial take on the A2 for the civilian market in the 30s or 40s, that looks right with period clothing even if it isn't the right thing for someone putting together a full uniform impression.

One other thing I can add to the discussion... I've spent a fair amount of time in China over the past few years, seen a lot of Chinese goods, and while not in the manufacturing business (I'm an academic who does a bit of teaching in Beijing), one thing I can say is that Chinese manufacturing is capable of producing a very high quality product indeed. Yes, there are questions about all the processing that should be asked and are important (tanneries, etc). It is all too commonly assumed, though, that "made in China" = cheap rubbish. In fact, Chinese manufacturers merely build to the spec and quality level set by the companies who outsource their product manufacture there. It's the specs that are cheap, not the garment per se. It's certainly interesting to see such a niche product coming out of China (most else I've seen has been solidly aimed at the mass market). While it certainly is interesting to compare these Chinese A2s to originals, I'd also be curious to see them compared to early products from Aero, ELC, etc. It'll also be interesting to revisit them in a few years' time and see how they're doing then.

 

[442RCT]

We will never know the rest until I or someone else actually buys it, breaks it in and evaluates it for what it is: a mid priced generic A-2 repro.

Let's wait and see if anyone plucks up the courage to get one of these jackets and give it a test run.

I've just plucked down a bit of loot to acquire a second hand painted Real McCoy Dubow, so it's going to have to be one you lads to buy one and be the beta testers.

 

[Speedbird]

I've just plucked down a bit of loot to acquire a second hand painted Real McCoy Dubow, so it's going to have to be one you lads to buy one and be the beta testers.

oh dear... that might be me then ... since I have been arguing strongly in favour of giving this jacket a proper chance!

 

[Speedbird]

While clearly not a fully accurate repro, going by the photos this looks like a much more period accurate generic-A2 (thinking 'house style' as opposed to 'contact repro') than we would normally see in that price band. If the quality of the jacket is good as a garment, I wuld be tempted.... the killer, of course, would be postage, possible customs fees.... etc. I'd love to see what one of these would sell for on the Chinese market. (Out there, the average wage is much, much lower. Many things are much cheaper than here in Europe, but not everything. I know iPods, for instance, are about the same price as they are here in the UK, making them very pricey relative to the local economy).

Where a jacket like this could sell well, I think, would be to folks who want a jacket that is generically accurate to the period, i.e. a jacket that could have been a commercial take on the A2 for the civilian market in the 30s or 40s, that looks right with period clothing even if it isn't the right thing for someone putting together a full uniform impression.

One other thing I can add to the discussion... I've spent a fair amount of time in China over the past few years, seen a lot of Chinese goods, and while not in the manufacturing business (I'm an academic who does a bit of teaching in Beijing), one thing I can say is that Chinese manufacturing is capable of producing a very high quality product indeed. Yes, there are questions about all the processing that should be asked and are important (tanneries, etc). It is all too commonly assumed, though, that "made in China" = cheap rubbish. In fact, Chinese manufacturers merely build to the spec and quality level set by the companies who outsource their product manufacture there. It's the specs that are cheap, not the garment per se. It's certainly interesting to see such a niche product coming out of China (most else I've seen has been solidly aimed at the mass market). While it certainly is interesting to compare these Chinese A2s to originals, I'd also be curious to see them compared to early products from Aero, ELC, etc. It'll also be interesting to revisit them in a few years' time and see how they're doing then.

Edward,

You have made some very valid and thoughtful contributions here. I too, like you, work in Education (or did until last year) and have linked with a college in Beijing. I wanted to post this earlier but I lacked the courage because I don't want the discussion to turn into a bunfight over China and 'made in China' issues. Captain Caveman started the discussion by asking what we thought, given that we accept that Made in China doesn't equal poor quality by default.

There is so many things good about the Chinese jacket - reinforced stitching on the zipper anchor, pocket corners and others I have already mentioned. It isn't an accurate Monarch per se. It is much better than early repros I worked with in the early '90's. And it is in an affordable price range; if bought from the Ebay seller.

With regard to the cost to the domestic market in China I wrote this earlier (but then deleted it - but I saved it in case I gained the courage of my convictions!)

"Interestingly, though not surprising, despite that so much of what is sold by so many retailers in the west (in all aspects of life including repro historical gear) is being made in Asia, most of us are still very wary of Asian manufacturing. Fair enough. That's our right as consumers. And, as already pointed out, such concern is not without good reason.

Here's a thought, though (enough to cause sleepless nights): I sense the manufacturer doesn't much care what we think. Reading the translated text on the manufacturer webpage, provided by 442, I get the feeling the manufacturer is aiming these products at the mid to high-ish end of the vast and hungry internal market and doesn't give two hoots about export. The jacket costs around 2000 yuan internally - a college lecturer earns about 3000 yuan a month. Or did in 2008. A Shanghai or Beijing cool dude hot whizz kid about town could afford these jackets but an average Joe couldn't."

I am in favour of this product for what it is - I think it could be better and it probably will get better in time. I think it will be a lot better, as Edward puts it as a 'garment' than people think. And I think the dark seal brown version with the red lining is crying out for a 'Flying Tigers' makeover! I would get the lining embroidered in Beijing too!

 

[saucerfiend]

Andrew.
Are the armholes for the original Monarch a bit larger that other A-2 contracts? Is the jacket fuller cut in the upper body?

Brian

 

[Fletch]

Where a jacket like this could sell well, I think, would be to folks who want a jacket that is generically accurate to the period, i.e. a jacket that could have been a commercial take on the A2 for the civilian market in the 30s or 40s, that looks right with period clothing even if it isn't the right thing for someone putting together a full uniform impression.

To be really "30s or 40s," it needs a stand collar. I'm not sure leathermakers even did simple-attached before the war. ICBW of course.

You could argue this doesn't affect the look that much.

 

[Edward]

To be really "30s or 40s," it needs a stand collar. I'm not sure leathermakers even did simple-attached before the war. ICBW of course.

You could argue this doesn't affect the look that much.

Here we begin to get to the limits of my knowledge of period jacket construction... there probably are details I've missed that would distinguish it from period to those more in the know, and it would definitely be nice to see those picked up on, though I say that as distinct from the issue of whether it is an accurate reproduction of a specific USAAF contract jacket as opposed to a jacket typical of civilian 'in the style of an A2' jackets available back then. It would be interesting, I think, to compare these directly with some of the examples of civilian jacets in this general style that are owned by loungers.

 

[Chainsaw]

Made in China?

Just based on principal, one shouldn't purchase a WWII jacket made in China.

That being said I am of course, a card carrying hypocrite.lol

I was in a Car shop that had a pair of "Ferrai" driving gloves for 175$CND. I later found a pair of hand stiched driving gloves at a Pakistani leather kiosk, for Ten. Other than the odd craving for curry, there are relativly few side effects. (there may however be black widows and Cobras sewed into the lining.)

Oh, here's something off topic, but I wouldn't mind an opinion.

The Price of se@l pelts is extremly affordable now, due to a ban on the European market. Does anyone have an opinion on the matter? A custom jacket would be very affordable out of the pelts.[huh]