Made in China - Monarch A-2 repros

[saucerfiend]

Almost forgot. Both hides are chrome-tanned. The knits are 65% wool and 35% rayon. He says the leather is thicker than an Eastman that he owns and that he has sold many to Japan customers.

Brian

 

[Speedbird]

Wow, no one else is concerned about the animal welfare issues
Creeping Past raises? I'm no PETA supporter, but I would certainly
consider that in my buy decision.

I have to say the leather looks pretty crummy in the photos.
I wouldn't want to order till I saw one or more of these jackets
worn by a human.

I didn't want to discuss animal stuff for fear of getting political. That's a matter of personal conscience IMHO.

We all agree that some of the photos are not doing this jacket any favours.

 

[Speedbird]

I'd be concerned about what chemicals were used in the tanning and finishing process given some Chinese manufacturers problems -- melamine added to pet foods to fake the contractual requirement for the amount of protein, Chinese drywall emitting sulfide fumes, cadmium in Chinese exported toys.

Not a good track record.

I'm an Aero owner, but if price were an issue, as it can be, I'll go for a Gibson & Barnes goat Air Force A-2 -- at US $338. (Not associated with G&B).

There certainly has been issues in manufacturing processes in the past. China is not alone in that. That's why it has been suggested that an ideal develpment would be a skilled manufacturer to oversee the Chinese output to help mentor and develop their skill. No one can turn back the clock on the Chinese manufacturing revolution; all we can do is to try to help it become better for the future of us all.

The G & B I am sure is an excellent jacket in the mid-range range. The purpose of this thread, I think, is to ascertain whether or not that this particular Chinese product which has detailing similiar to a high end reproduction of an original has indeed achieved a good product; especially and particularly in relation to it's price point.

As an aside, where are the other mid-point jackets actually made? And I don't mean 'finished'.

 

[Creeping Past]

No one can turn back the clock on the Chinese manufacturing revolution; all we can do is to try to help it become better for the future of us all.

Including help regarding real concern for the welfare of animals and people, I hope. That's not political, just polite.

 

[Speedbird]

Original Monarch v Chinese Repro Monarch

I have been looking at http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2detail2a.html to compare to the Chinese repro here: http://translate.google.com/transla...ail-0db2-60053d080fc7f0b0656802216300c7c5.htm

I have concluded the Chinese might have been better off not calling it a repro Monarch. It actually seems like a classic mix 'n' match orphan!

The Chinese version has a lot of really good neat original details and features but there are a lot of discrepancies between the original examined by the man behind Acme and the repro in question. The rotated sleeve is a case in point. There are others but, I am already turning into a stitch counter and that wasn't the intention in this case!

Of course, this assumes Monarch made all their jackets like the original one above! Since it is readily believable and known that variations occurred within the same manufacturers output and so the Chinese repro might be faithful to their original example which might be different to the original example above.

In conclusion, we need an example to physically see as the question for me is not is this a museum standard repro, but is it a wearable, useable good enough A-2?

HJ and CP have both said that the product and service from Spearhead are ok - that is a pretty good endorsement in my book.

 

[Speedbird]

Including help regarding real concern for the welfare of animals and people, I hope. That's not political, just polite.

Indeed.... I am just wary of such issues as I am still learning how FL works and I have noticed in a lot threads a lot members are no longer here!

I in no way endorse animal or human harm! Educating the Chinese in these areas is a good thing.

 

[Kid Mac]

There certainly has been issues in manufacturing processes in the past. China is not alone in that. That's why it has been suggested that an ideal develpment would be a skilled manufacturer to oversee the Chinese output to help mentor and develop their skill. No one can turn back the clock on the Chinese manufacturing revolution; all we can do is to try to help it become better for the future of us all.

The problem is that often the manufacturer/producer who contracts with a western company then outsources to material suppliers, etc. Purina had this problem, and hundreds of pets died. Hundreds of people had homes destroyed by faulty Chinese drywall -- with no legal recourse. Until the Chinese government enforces manufacturing and supply safety rules....

 

[Sgt.MikeHorvath]

hi there guys,
excuse me but...are we talking about SPEARHEAD MILITARIA SHOP?or i've misunderstoood?

thank you

PS:if it is,i've also seen a A-1 leather jacket repro...what do you think about it?nd about the wood buttons?

PPS:HAVE YOU OTHER PHOTOS ABOUT THIS JACKET TAKEN FROM THE CHINESE SHOP?(NOT EBAY SHOP)

THANKS

 

[Speedbird]

hi there guys,
excuse me but...are we talking about SPEARHEAD MILITARIA SHOP?or i've misunderstoood?

thank you

PS:if it is,i've also seen a A-1 leather jacket repro...what do you think about it?nd about the wood buttons?

PPS:HAVE YOU OTHER PHOTOS ABOUT THIS JACKET TAKEN FROM THE CHINESE SHOP?(NOT EBAY SHOP)

THANKS

Spearhead is the Ebay seller ... see link in first post in thread. The manufacturers link and 'factory' photos are in the second post.

Don't know about the A-1.

 

[Speedbird]

The problem is that often the manufacturer/producer who contracts with a western company then outsources to material suppliers, etc. Purina had this problem, and hundreds of pets died. Hundreds of people had homes destroyed by faulty Chinese drywall -- with no legal recourse. Until the Chinese government enforces manufacturing and supply safety rules....

Agreed. It is noted. My earlier post said in my opinion an ideal arrangement would be for a US or GB manufacturer to set up shop in China to control production properly. It acknowledges these issues and I am sorry for anyone affected by them.

All we want to know is, leaving aside other important issues for now, is this jacket actually any good and value for money, regardless of where it is made?

 

[Fletch]

My point about the hide being possibly being thin is this - in the text somewhere it says that they are using 1.6mm horse hide - but the micrometer pictures indicate a 'good' spec of 8 stitches per inch and the hide does look thick - this is what led me to think that something is being lost in translation.

Leather Weight & Thickness Conversions
According to the chart at the above link, 1.6mm ± 4 oz., and 1.8mm ± 4.5 oz.
Your typical good A-2 repro is closer to 3 oz. So these jackets may be WAY too heavy.

 

[Fiver64]

Thank you!

I looked into tanning in China a while ago. I'm not saying that all are as bad as the ones I've seen images and text on, but I'll not be buying Chinese leather goods until there's a way I can ascertain that there's some checkable element of animal welfare in the Chinese leather industry.

Creeping is right (in my book)! China is known for horrible animal abuse. Until certain factors can be established, animals may suffer. I doubt there is really any way to verify anything though, as China is closed to external investigation groups.

Not a screaming PETA supporter here......... owning many leather jackets and all, but opposed to needless cruelty on any level, against any living thing.

 

[too much coffee]

Thanks to Fletch's leather thickness conversion, I'd say so much the better on the Chinese Monarch. After all, would we all have bought Aero FQHH or Heavy Steerhide Highwayman jackets if Aero only offered a 3oz.

 

[Fletch]

opposed to needless cruelty on any level, against any living thing.

Odd choice of quotation, then.

 

[Speedbird]

weight and thickness of leather

Leather Weight & Thickness Conversions
According to the chart at the above link, 1.6mm ± 4 oz., and 1.8mm ± 4.5 oz.
Your typical good A-2 repro is closer to 3 oz. So these jackets may be WAY too heavy.

Thanks Fletch, that's a useful chart and useful to know that a good repro is around the 3oz grading - but I think the "WAY too heavy" might be over-reaching. We are talking tenths of a milimetre here - the thickness of 3 - 3.5oz at around 1.1 - 1.4 mm thickness is only about .4mm or 1/64 less thick than the 4 - 4.5oz hide. That's a human hair in terms of thickness.

I think we can safely say the thickness of the hide is not an issue. I was probably thinking it was thin in relation to my cowhide A-2 or Ironhyde Belstaff biker jacket. Clearly, anything that thick is too thick for an A-2.

 

[Paden]

Every thing, I can buy from Europew or USA, I will buy from there.
It is my personal view, not to buy things from that "republik".
I can not stop the global trade, but I do not need to swim in the "midlle of the river" and by only by price.
It is not only the price, it is the work and the people in the background of the maker.
Today, we came back from Aero, visited Will.
Loveley people, superb jackets and a very good view of business and the life of other people.

I do not like the jacket, by the way, because I will buy the story as a part of the deal.
It looks like an A2, but this is not an A2!
I would save my money and buy an Aero, Estaman, Goodwear ect.
If you will sell the jacket anytime, it is much easier to sell that maker jackets.
Comparing a G&B or cockpit, I would buy one of them.

 

[Speedbird]

China's political regime, animal welfare and industrial safety are not the issue here

Thank you Paden. Your view is noted. Likewise Fiver.

Can I just reiterate that all those who originally started this discussion are concerning ourselves with in this particular instance is one simple question:

"Is this jacket any good?" And without speaking for others, the context I think we are measuring it in is that most often associated with the 'orphan' jackets.

We are not comparing it to a highend repro, an Aero, an Eastman, a Good Wear. We even are not comparing it to a mid range jacket per se, but something like the Gibson & Barnes, Cockpit USA and other similar provide a reference point in terms of pricing

At this point it doesn't matter if it was made in the UK, USA or Uzbekistan.

So, please, can we lay off the animals, the children, the pollution and the economics. Those concerns are noted.

 

[Sgt.MikeHorvath]

thank you Speedbird,
i've visited the chinese link that you posted in the first page but i don't know how to move in it...can you post a link where i can see all their jackets please?a home page of this site ?

thanks

 

[aswatland]

Comparing this jacket with my original Monarch I would say its a cheapish Monarch spin off and in no way an accurate copy. The sleeves are not inset, it has ring snaps, not ball snaps, the pockets are too large and wide, the horsehide has a plastic finish and is somewhat too dark on the Ebay jacket. Many Monarchs were russet, but I have seen a few darker ones, but not this seal colour. The collar does not look correct, lacking the longish, slightly curved points.

As has been said already a member needs to buy one it can be properly evaluated.

 

[Speedbird]

Hi Sarge,

Taobao.com isn't the manufacturer - it is really a distributor. It is a massive e-commerce network in Asia selling anything and everything online.

I can't read mandarin characters; I've searched through for something looking like the actual manufacturer of this jackets but no luck & no idea. Perhaps emailing the ebay seller will turn up something.

As it turns out, it may not even be made in China - it could be somewhere else in Asia, but that doesn't change anything really.