LUFTWAFFE jackets - Eagles who Dare to Wear..!

[Paden]

Luftwaffe jacket? Only good ones were the ones shot full of British and American bullet holes.

"Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so few."
-Churchill

Sounds like a lot of room in your head.
unbelievable.....................

 

[BellyTank]

Yes- sometimes, when our leSS wOrldly internet friends forget who tHEy're
talking to, tHEy can embarrAss tHEMselves...


B
T

 

[Spitfire]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Yes- sometimes, when our leSS wOrldly internet friends forget who tHEy're
talking to, tHEy can embarrAss tHEMselves...


B
T

 

[johnnyjohnny]

DeR ERoTiK HartMaNN Luftwaffen Jacket

Yes.
jOhnnYjoHnny is milking it but he may be milking the wrong goat
---Mr. BeLLyTank

ahh mister bellytank, i wear goat, i don't milk them...and that phrase is rather unfortunate given the discussion here...however, i'll sally forth (another unfortunate expression here) into the fray to disabuse you dear sir, and anyone, that "I" am the progenitor here of the accusation that Luftwaffe jackets are 'homoerotic'...that was some other fedoraLounger's assertion...

i only pointed out that the two fellows in the photo he chose to show were looking a bit more fondly at each other than their stuka or messerschmitt

HoWeVeR, since i've been accused of MiLKiNG by my paL and fellow believer in reinCarnation, Mr. BeLLyTank, i'll miLk a different horse, to totally crisscroSS metaphors...

i will indeed assert that, rather than homoerotic tendencies, the incredible ww2 Luftwaffen jackets have a strong Erotic tendency...that certain elements of the Gay community have glommed onto this (a la the viLLage folks, or people...great music by the way) is only natural since these jackets were inherently seXuaL

let us not forget that none other than herr himmLer himself contracted with Hugo BoSS (yeah, won't find this on the boss website history of the company) to design and make the SS outfit, for the express purpose of exalting young SS officers to attract the opposite sex (not the same sex, though like j. edgar hoover allegedly, we cannot say what himmler did behind closed doors)...himmler felt that a sexually potent reputation for the SS would draw the finest of the Aryan nation in droves to der ranks of that rather nauseating organisation

and hence we come to the Luftwaffe Jacket...again, another strong sexually charged object...not surprising that young hot rod german men would want to look potent while they were shooting down and being shot down...while i personally prefer the a-2, it does have a less sexual quality, a more friendly quality, alas being designed by the upper brass rather than being chosen by the randy cats who would wear the garment

now, we get down to the inception of all this...

perhaps the first time the psyChosexuaL aspect of the german ww2 garmentage was brought into public consciousness like a sledgehammer was in the 1974 charlotte rampling and dirk bogarde film, der nachtporter (the night porter)...we all recall the more toned down poster shown here in the states:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0780022823/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=130&s=dvd

whilst no luftwaffe jacket, just about everything else was there on charlotte to make the point that there was something seXuaL about that ww2 german wear...but of course it was shown in a sick sexual context, which in fact was the whole context of the movie...the twisted relationship between victim and victimizer...but i digress

prior to that, even back in the halcyon daze of the sixteeeeez someone as nawty then but quaint in retrospect (pre helen redddddy hear me roar) was emma peel of the avengers in her modernized leathers that still, with diagonal slit-zippered top pockets, waist buckle, and though a turned up collar, still harkened back to luftwaffesque jacketry:
http://calwestray.tripod.com/images/emma_leather.jpg

these days the 'night porter' thing has become de rigueur...and whilst most Dominatrixen have very little on, the implied uniform for them, when they are dressed, includes a very very Luftwaffesque jacket, as this doLL (not dangerous for the kids, don't worry) has:
http://www.downonmyknees.com/femdom/leather-coated-domme.jpg

of course the rather edgy roots of the Dominatory SeXuaL nature of germanware and the luftwaffe jacket can be seen in many other more grotesque illustrations and pictures...i had one posted here but apparently it doesn't open properly...oh well, probably for the best. the pix i've shown get my point across...

so rather than JohnnyJohnny claiming Luftwaffe jackets (which i love) are homoErotic, i did no such thing, milked no goats, and just thought two guys sitting on a plane seem to like each other more than the plane...

but i strongly dO charge that the ww2 Luftwaffe jacket is one of the most seXuaLLy charged pieces of wear in the german ww2 arsenal of wear...so much so it even trumps himmler/hugo boss's rather fine creation of dark sexy wear from heLL, the SS uniform (boss also had a lighter moment designing the hitler youth outfits...ahhhhh, takes me back to my days in little league, though i had to make do with dodger caps rather than a red swastika)

as for the best luftwaffe jackets having lots of british/american lead holes in them as someone suggested, i'll suggest back that such would ruin the line of any nice luftwaffe jacket...but seriously, we can all agree (or most of us) those nazis were the scummen of the earth, but we can be large enough to appreciate a fine garment...this is a technical forum, not a political blog...so please understand why that holey stuff doesn't really apply here

johnnyjohnny

 

[Baron Kurtz]

sTrAngELy, johnny johnny, that's quite a good post. I have been formulating something along those lines in response but now i won't bother.

A couple of points of clarification, though. I was indeed moved more by that picture than the jacket itself. The young lad (though he's wearing a wedding ring) could almost be one of Baron Corvo's subjects … were he in the south of Italy about 40 years previously. The construction of the photograph, with dominant elder male subject in black leather and adoring youth is classic in its overtones. Almost pederastic but that's a different discussion entirely. The toplessness merely heightens the inherent signal.

Many of the other photos of the same and similar people do not have these overtones. Though the raw sexuality of the cut materials and attitude of wearing are still present.

I think you're right johnnyjohnny, that erotic would be a better term. But when a man finds other men erotic - be it via their clothes or whatever - and even if this is merely meme-induced - when does it become homoerotic? This was the mind-tangle which made me choose the term i did, over the more inclusive (sexist that i am) "erotic". There are those who will have it that all hero-worship (very loosely used - adoration better) when it involves members of the same sex has at its root our inherent bisexuality. Whether you (vosotros) believe these ideas - many don't - is for your (vosotros) opinions. I think BellyTank is right:

The "Male" can be "Romanticised", without implicit, or explicit sexual overtone.
Any perception of implicit or explicit sexual reference here, is individual and surely specific to context and culture
(of the target, group- us, here).

bk

 

[kampkatz]

JohnnyJohnny and Baron both have quite erudite comments. Yes, the word "erotic" would seem most suitable and it would most likely have ended any discussion at that. We can thus get back on track and focus on the historical garments.

 

[Edward]

...nevertheless, bravo that we can have a civilised discussion on such themes without the inevitable descent that seems de rigeur elsewhere on the web.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

For thos ein the know: How common are these things to find? That is, the issued cloth jackets. Very cool.

bk

 

[argomax]

Noble House vs. Eastman

Dear fellows, my name's Max, I'm from Italy and I am the Italian distributor for both Noble House (Germany) and Aero Leather Clothing (Scotland). Additionally, I imported Eastman few years back but no longer work with them.
I have a few comments to make on the quality issues, given the fact I am pretty well informed on all 3 companies' products and working ways.

A)
The discussions about quality vs. price must FIRST take into account the discrepancies between exchange rates: the Dollar is NOT the currency you should evaluate the cost if the items with, regardless of the fact that it's the currency you use. Rather, you should find out the price in the country of origin. I elaborate: British imports in the US, dealt in Pounds, have a preferred exchange rate than Euros against the dollar. In Europe, however, it's the other way around. So you are actually paying 400-500 USD or more for an item that, in any other country working with Euro currency, will cost you around 270 Euros. For comparison, the Eastman equivalent, will cost you 800 Euros in that same country. Those are, in fact, the prices I had to apply on Noble House's Hartmann jacket (euro 270) and on Eastman's Hartmann (euro 790), when for a time I had both of them listed in our catalogue.

B)
Dealing all three companies, I noticed that the designs, based on the same specimens, are the same, or, in other words, THEY HAVE THE SAME FLAWS: I have complained with Eastman on a couple occasions for evident design flaws on some items, same as I did with Noble and with Aero Leather. Anyone of them manufactures some designs better than it does others, and with some detail discrepancies from the WW2 originals according to a number of reasons, ranging from shortage of supplies to expensive techniques.
Stating that an item is virtually indistinguishable from a WW2 original is, excuse my French, pure turd. Also because WW2 originals came in SO MANY VARIATIONS, due to war shortages and fragmented production batches, that probably no 10 items are alike, except maybe USAAF A2's and B3's.

C)
The customer basis is different: NobleHouse wishes to cater to people who like the jacket designs of WW2 and wear them in their spare time, whereas Eastman caters to the serious WW2 buff and/or reenactor - a much pickier fella to deal with. Aero Leather sits somewhere in the middle of the two.

D)
Noble House actually makes relly good "everyday" WW2 replicas. I own a few, you guessed, and they really fit better than some more expensive items I also have. I frankly care much less about the sewing details than I do about how good it looks on me, and excuse me, but that closes the deal for 99% of my customers.

E)
Eastman, among all three, is the less pleasant one to work with - simple as that. They have a strict and, frankly, unnerving way of dealing with agents; also they will not work on custom measurements (Aero leather and Noble will do that at no extra cost), they will not add, change, or remove details, for example inner pockets or zips (again, Aero leather and Noble will do that at no extra cost), and their price list is about 1/4 to 1/3 higher than Aero Leather (the only one of the two other who is on a par with Eastman over quality and is also from the UK). Eastman's expected delivery time is 60 days, about twice as long as Aero's.

F)
Speaking of absolute quality, Aero leather and Eastman buy the same leathers at the same tanneries, work from similar museum pieces and obtain a perfectly comparable level of quality and detail. One has a better something, the other will have a better something else, but the 2 companies are actually side by side on all levels. Eastman has surely a much better website and advertisement; Aero's is somewhat incomplete and has bad pics that don't pay their items enough justice. Please check out Aero Leather American agent's own website here: http://www.picturetrail.com/aeroleatherusa.

G)
Finally, Noble House's leathers are manufactured in 2 locations: sheepskin items and heavy leather items in New Mexico (USA) out of Argentinian and Peruvian leathers, and minor leather jackets are manufactured in Hamburg, Germany.

One final point: Noble House's manager asks me to apologize about the expensive shipping costs to USA, but he stressed that he works out of pure cost there: nothing he can do about those rates.

Hope this settles all. greetings.

 

[Smithy]

D) Eastman, among all three, is the worst to work with - simple as that. They have a strict and unpleasant way of dealing with agents; also they will not work on custom measurements (which Aero leather and Noble will do at no extra cost), they will not add or remove details (again, which Aero leather and Noble will do at no extra cost), and their price list is about 1/4 to 1/3 higher than Aero Leather (the only one of the two other who is on a par with Eastman over quality).

Sorry but that's your opinion. When I ordered my Irvin from Gary I could not have asked for a more helpful and patient chap. He went out of his way to help. Therefore in my opinion they were one of the best companies I have dealt with. Perhaps they are more difficult for agents to deal with but for individual customers my experience was that they are brilliant.

Also to say that Eastman will not work on custom measurements is incorrect. My jacket was made to different measurements than Eastman's standard regular and long sizings. I'll admit that they won't do the extent of work that Aero do but it's not correct to imply that customers are unable to change the regular and long sizings. Once again perhaps there is a difference between agent and individual orders.

 

[Dieter]

Greetings, good denizens of the Fedora Lounge. This is my first posting here, and have read with great interest this entire thread regarding the Luftwaffe fleigerjacke. JohnnyJohnny's post of last night was excellent, and I'd like to add to his observations.
The majority of uniform designs for the German Armed Forces (Wehrmacht), with the exception of later war field uniforms, were intended to exaggerate the natural form of the bodies that wore them in order to build a psyhological sense of confidence, physical fitness and, ultimately, superiority. This is displayed by shortening the sleeve cuffs and hems of their tunics and jackets, giving the impression that these men were "taller' than they actually were in stature. An excellent on-line review of these uniforms can be found at http://www.lostbattalions.com/german33-45/ww2blusefit/fit33-45.html

Incidentally, I'd also very much like to point out that the impression I personally felt from the photograph of the Luftwaffe oberleutnant pilot and his shirtless wingman was not of homoeroticism, as the good Baron opined, but one of friendship and comeradery, where both men faced the challenges of survival and death together during very dark times (for both sides).

 

[boyorastroboy]

In a related question--though I'm curious about the supply of originals as well--anybody with experience with this reproduction care to comment on it in terms of quality/accuracy?

from these guys:

http://www.original-fliegerjacken.de/

For those in the know: How common are these things to find? That is, the issued cloth jackets. Very cool.

bk

 

[Dieter]

Hmmm...Zippers are genuine Ri-Ri's with leather pull tabs, Snaps are German manufactured Prym brand, proper internal cuffs for wind protection, and it looks to be heavy 100% cotton twill construction. IMHO, it appears to be a high-quality reproduction worth getting. :eusa_clap

In a related question--though I'm curious about the supply of originals as well--anybody with experience with this reproduction care to comment on it in terms of quality/accuracy?

from these guys:

http://www.original-fliegerjacken.de/

 

[johnnyjohnny]

i LoVE yOu maN!!!

and nein, i don't mean that homoErotically...

i mean this forum...great comments like herr Dieter's giving even more info on why this german ww2-wear has become cLassic, having been designed to accenTuate human features of power and Dominance...

and then ARGomax, coming in and actually having working knowledge of distributing the makers discussed...and their variances...his working knowledge of the planned cost for noblehouse wear, and that exchange rates inflated the prices for us here in the u.s., should give me pause when i criticize noblehouse for selling a more modest product at higher prices...mY bAd!

but now for a quote proferred by another fedoralounger, but originally from my paL Mr. BeLLyTank, who states: "The 'Male' can be 'Romanticised', without implicit, or explicit sexual overtone. Any perception of implicit or explicit sexual reference here, is individual and surely specific to context and culture"

while that is the 'enlightened' view, and very intellectually arguable, and even preferred...alas i think FreuD (as besmirched as he has become, and as messed uP psychologically as i'm sure he may have been) had it right...i quote an efficient enough encapsulization of the point: "(Freud was) renowned for his redefinition of sexual desire as the primary motivational energy of human life which is directed toward a wide variety of objects"...


and obviously the object under discussion here is the ww2 Luftwaffe flight jacket...i'd say F. was in large part right about humanity, and very correct about this piece of cLothing...

not to beat a dead horse (er, goatskin)

 

[Marcus]

Glad I found this thread. I too am looking for a LW jacket for my pilot's impression. The going has been tough since the Eastman and Aero jackets are way out of my price range. Good info on the major contenders though.

My wife and I ended up making Channel Pants, so we may end up just making the channel jacket which will be snap compared to the pants. Still...nothing beats the look of a nice leather jacket.

 

[argomax]

Sorry but that's your opinion. When I ordered my Irvin from Gary I could not have asked for a more helpful and patient chap. He went out of his way to help. Therefore in my opinion they were one of the best companies I have dealt with. Perhaps they are more difficult for agents to deal with but for individual customers my experience was that they are brilliant.

Yes, that it's my opinion. But I, as an agent and a customer, have dealt with A LOT of companies. Eastman ranks really low in my friendliness chart.

Also to say that Eastman will not work on custom measurements is incorrect. My jacket was made to different measurements than Eastman's standard regular and long sizings. I'll admit that they won't do the extent of work that Aero do but it's not correct to imply that customers are unable to change the regular and long sizings. Once again perhaps there is a difference between agent and individual orders.

Again, Mr. Eastman's very own words to me were: "Customers pick the size, not us. Based on the charts we publish, they have to do their own math. We won't be dragged into doing custom jobs". And that applied also to adding pockets, shortening arms, and so on.

 

[PADDY]

Well gentlemen, if nothing else...

If one is in the market for a Luftwaffe type jacket, then this thread is giving a fairly 'balanced' view of member's dealings/experiences with different companies/producers of repro WWII Luftwaffe flight jackets. All our individual experiences are subjective and personal, but collectively listed allow for ALL OF US to hopefully make a better and informed decision when we finally decide on what company to go for and which jacket model to purchase.

Some great and very useful information coming out of this which is what this place is all about (well it's ideally what we aim for!). Plus it's discussed in an even toned and civilised way in sharing knowledge and experience to help other members when buying the 'best fit' jacket for them!! :eusa_clap

STERLING stuff!!

 

[Smithy]

Again, Mr. Eastman's very own words to me were: "Customers pick the size, not us. Based on the charts we publish, they have to do their own math. We won't be dragged into doing custom jobs". And that applied also to adding pockets, shortening arms, and so on.

Well that was very different to what Gary did with my Irvin and made for me. They won't do the amount of alterations that Aero will but they will change the length of the jackets, lengthen, shorten arms. I should know, they did it with mine. And Gary was one of the most helpful and pleasant vendors I have dealt with.

Argomax, I don't mind you stating your opinion, you are entitled to it. But it's not right to come out and make blanket statements that Eastman don't shorten arms or will not work from custom measurements when, for individual customers, at least, they will to a degree.

It's also a little suspicious when a vendor's first post here seems to be to bag another company and their methods. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't look the best.

 

[ethanedwards]

Eastman

I know someone who had their ELC jacket made 1" longer in the body, Eastman's were happy to oblige but did state beforehand that this work made it a non-returnable item. Seems fair enough to me.

 

[Smithy]

I know someone who had their ELC jacket made 1" longer in the body, Eastman's were happy to oblige but did state beforehand that this work made it a non-returnable item. Seems fair enough to me.

That's right Ethan, you cannot return Eastman jackets that have been modified. The extra 1'' is actually Eastman's long sizing. I had even more put on mine as I'm tallish.