ABCD
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I always love reading @Superfluous well substantiated views. It's like we're taking part in a public hearing of the 'leather jacket court of law' and a piece of leather of Japanese descent is the accused lol.
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How many new jackets do you have coming (and how many potential ones)?
- Thread starter red devil
- Start date
Wait, are these all pics of leather you own?
How many sq/m do you have in storage?
That's madness!
Why do people feel personally attacked when someone posts "shinki is the best above all others" or "shinki is snake oil, its no better than any other leather?" They're just opinions; they are not dogma. Moreover, no one is forcing you to choose one camp or the other. You're entitled to reach your own conclusion.
The whole point of a forum like this is to listen (err, read), learn, and engage. Controversial dialogue is GOOD. It forces you to evaluate your own beliefs and opinions. It fosters discourse. Let people voice their opinion, however controversial, and then read and rebut them. But don't take it as an affront to your decisions or life choices. None of this is personal, it's just a hobby. End mini-rant.
The whole point of a forum like this is to listen (err, read), learn, and engage. Controversial dialogue is GOOD. It forces you to evaluate your own beliefs and opinions. It fosters discourse. Let people voice their opinion, however controversial, and then read and rebut them. But don't take it as an affront to your decisions or life choices. None of this is personal, it's just a hobby. End mini-rant.
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Discussions like that is why I love TFL!
Where there is hype, there will soon be an anti-movement. After a while emotions take over facts. And why not?! If we can´t be emotional over leather, what´s the point of this hobby in the first place.
My red line is respect for the makers. What is a hobby for us is a living for them. Of course, they know what they are doing.
On the other hand, @navetsea is totally spot-on re marketing-bla-bla that doesn´t help at all in understanding the specifics of the product but rather disgiuse them.
Where there is hype, there will soon be an anti-movement. After a while emotions take over facts. And why not?! If we can´t be emotional over leather, what´s the point of this hobby in the first place.
My red line is respect for the makers. What is a hobby for us is a living for them. Of course, they know what they are doing.
On the other hand, @navetsea is totally spot-on re marketing-bla-bla that doesn´t help at all in understanding the specifics of the product but rather disgiuse them.
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@Superfluous
First off, you know how much I respect and downright love you, man.
So please read this not in a tone that'd as much as suggest argumentativeness or disagreement.
Also this is more a train of thought post than a counter-argument because in essence, I agree with your post.
My comment didn't mean hate on Shinki and I wasn't tryna establish a hierarchy based solely on leather of my preference sitting at the top, all the rest being ****, simply because as I have stated many times so far - something that members who know me even superficially can confirm - Shinki in all its aspects fully qualifies as a leather of my preference.
Thus I am not saying nor have I ever said Shinki is a bad / ugly / whatever hide.
My comment was a jab at the hype that had build up around it. And you cannot possibly be telling me hype ain't real. I believe that you are wrong that the term Shinki isn't like 110% used as a marketing tool in many to ALL newly emerging makers, who happen to get a hold of it.
Also, did you notice how we're seeing a lot more of "Italian leather" lately? In that regard, lemme ask you something, which new maker do you believe would get the attention of the heritage crowd; One that advertises their jackets as being made of Shinki, or other that does not disclose the origin of the leather they use, regardless of how well it looks on the photos?
The mid-range part of my comment came off inflammatory but not because I intended it in such a manner, but because of all the aforementioned hype, you, me (earlier on), and many others have pretty much deified it.
Mid-range Italian leather is beautiful. High-end Italian leather is seriously on another level altogether. This is of course all subjective opinion but the fact, I believe, remains that most people who have handled enough leather, will generally put aside the highest end grade stuff will agree to it indeed being something special.
But sure, let's put Shinki at a high-end side of the spectrum; It's got all the characteristics and it's a gorgeous hide. I've no trouble with that.
What annoys me to some extent is, again, the hype and thus consequently complete disregard for so many other wonderful leather - So well illustrated in @Marc mndt's post in this thread - resulting in all else falling into oblivion. This micro-cosmos of heritage fashion, instead of being a sort of an anti-fashion, a rebel of a sort that wasn't suppose to succumb to any rules, turned into such a ridiculous hype-train of elitism where if you're not doing the exact same thing over and over again, you're doing it wrong - but - that's what you get when normies get a hold of something. But that's irrelevant.
My point is, we often see posts like that here, too. How many times have you read a comment stating that the posters favorite leather is Shinki, therefore they're not sure if the jacket they're inquiring about is as good or holds similar value, even though the jacket is made out of clearly fantastic leather. In 99% of cases, posters favorite leather happens to be the only leather they've handled.
This reminds me; Some time ago, I was reading a discussion that took place in the comments section on Grailed, under the Chrome Hearts leather jacket listing, regarding the price which was little over $7000 at the time. That same jacket now sells for close to $20K. Irrelevant.
Opinions of all kinds were being thrown around but the comment that got my attention was something along the line of "I can get three Langlitz jackets for this kind of money!" to which another person replied that following such logic, they could get 70 Wilson's.
This of course steered the discussion toward the question of quality, with almost everyone involved agreeing that Langlitz has to be a superior maker, which prompted the poster who suggested 70 Wilson's to explain why Langlitz falls short compared to Chrome Hearts. Needless to say, this infuriated me at first but the way they worded the argument left me wondering ever since if what they're saying just might hold some merit. Dude objectively compared both jackets I could not detect any significant bias.
It was a discussion that I would in all likelihood forgot all about had I not, sometime later, acquired a Chrome Hearts leather vest and the moment I unboxed it, I realized the poster that compared Langlitz not so favorably to CH, was indeed on to something - and at the same time, it struck me how much of a victim I was to all the hype built around Langlitz which, to me personally, at this point in time has more cons than pros.
All I'm saying is, research further, research more. Outside of this micro-cosmos where only a couple of Japanese manufacturers rule and where only a handful of styles are acceptable, all else immediately dismissed of being lesser in quality/value (under the pretense of being 'Okay for the price'). As @red devil stated, fashion may appear to be mostly trash but at the same time, a good pieces that emerge leave one wonder what is it that I've been believing in this whole time.
I can correct my previous statement; Shinki can be called a high-end hide BUT you may find something else that will not just de-prioritize it but just might kick it off your list altogether. Don't base your purchases just on a marketing ploy. That of course isn't aimed toward you, Super, as you've dabbed into Vintage as well and you know what you do and do not like (for instance, I really respect your opinions concerning Lewis Leathers as you've reached them through careful research) - I'm just saying that in general.
Last but not least, a photo of my Chrome Hearts vest. Zoom in on the leather. And y'know what, lemme tell you that from knowing as much as I do about you & your preference in jackets, I think that should you be presented with a choice between this hide and, say, RMC's Shinki, with the ability to handle both of course, I'm 99.9% sure you'd say you want your jacket made outta this.
First off, you know how much I respect and downright love you, man.
So please read this not in a tone that'd as much as suggest argumentativeness or disagreement.Also this is more a train of thought post than a counter-argument because in essence, I agree with your post.
My comment didn't mean hate on Shinki and I wasn't tryna establish a hierarchy based solely on leather of my preference sitting at the top, all the rest being ****, simply because as I have stated many times so far - something that members who know me even superficially can confirm - Shinki in all its aspects fully qualifies as a leather of my preference.
Thus I am not saying nor have I ever said Shinki is a bad / ugly / whatever hide.
My comment was a jab at the hype that had build up around it. And you cannot possibly be telling me hype ain't real. I believe that you are wrong that the term Shinki isn't like 110% used as a marketing tool in many to ALL newly emerging makers, who happen to get a hold of it.
Also, did you notice how we're seeing a lot more of "Italian leather" lately? In that regard, lemme ask you something, which new maker do you believe would get the attention of the heritage crowd; One that advertises their jackets as being made of Shinki, or other that does not disclose the origin of the leather they use, regardless of how well it looks on the photos?
The mid-range part of my comment came off inflammatory but not because I intended it in such a manner, but because of all the aforementioned hype, you, me (earlier on), and many others have pretty much deified it.
Mid-range Italian leather is beautiful. High-end Italian leather is seriously on another level altogether. This is of course all subjective opinion but the fact, I believe, remains that most people who have handled enough leather, will generally put aside the highest end grade stuff will agree to it indeed being something special.
But sure, let's put Shinki at a high-end side of the spectrum; It's got all the characteristics and it's a gorgeous hide. I've no trouble with that.
What annoys me to some extent is, again, the hype and thus consequently complete disregard for so many other wonderful leather - So well illustrated in @Marc mndt's post in this thread - resulting in all else falling into oblivion. This micro-cosmos of heritage fashion, instead of being a sort of an anti-fashion, a rebel of a sort that wasn't suppose to succumb to any rules, turned into such a ridiculous hype-train of elitism where if you're not doing the exact same thing over and over again, you're doing it wrong - but - that's what you get when normies get a hold of something. But that's irrelevant.
My point is, we often see posts like that here, too. How many times have you read a comment stating that the posters favorite leather is Shinki, therefore they're not sure if the jacket they're inquiring about is as good or holds similar value, even though the jacket is made out of clearly fantastic leather. In 99% of cases, posters favorite leather happens to be the only leather they've handled.
This reminds me; Some time ago, I was reading a discussion that took place in the comments section on Grailed, under the Chrome Hearts leather jacket listing, regarding the price which was little over $7000 at the time. That same jacket now sells for close to $20K. Irrelevant.
Opinions of all kinds were being thrown around but the comment that got my attention was something along the line of "I can get three Langlitz jackets for this kind of money!" to which another person replied that following such logic, they could get 70 Wilson's.
This of course steered the discussion toward the question of quality, with almost everyone involved agreeing that Langlitz has to be a superior maker, which prompted the poster who suggested 70 Wilson's to explain why Langlitz falls short compared to Chrome Hearts. Needless to say, this infuriated me at first but the way they worded the argument left me wondering ever since if what they're saying just might hold some merit. Dude objectively compared both jackets I could not detect any significant bias.
It was a discussion that I would in all likelihood forgot all about had I not, sometime later, acquired a Chrome Hearts leather vest and the moment I unboxed it, I realized the poster that compared Langlitz not so favorably to CH, was indeed on to something - and at the same time, it struck me how much of a victim I was to all the hype built around Langlitz which, to me personally, at this point in time has more cons than pros.
All I'm saying is, research further, research more. Outside of this micro-cosmos where only a couple of Japanese manufacturers rule and where only a handful of styles are acceptable, all else immediately dismissed of being lesser in quality/value (under the pretense of being 'Okay for the price'). As @red devil stated, fashion may appear to be mostly trash but at the same time, a good pieces that emerge leave one wonder what is it that I've been believing in this whole time.
I can correct my previous statement; Shinki can be called a high-end hide BUT you may find something else that will not just de-prioritize it but just might kick it off your list altogether. Don't base your purchases just on a marketing ploy. That of course isn't aimed toward you, Super, as you've dabbed into Vintage as well and you know what you do and do not like (for instance, I really respect your opinions concerning Lewis Leathers as you've reached them through careful research) - I'm just saying that in general.
Last but not least, a photo of my Chrome Hearts vest. Zoom in on the leather. And y'know what, lemme tell you that from knowing as much as I do about you & your preference in jackets, I think that should you be presented with a choice between this hide and, say, RMC's Shinki, with the ability to handle both of course, I'm 99.9% sure you'd say you want your jacket made outta this.
El Marro
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If I recall correctly going with horsehide adds about $1000 to the price of the jacket, which is why we see very few new horsehide jackets from Langlitz. I agree with you about the straight back as well, since I don’t ride a motorcycle appreciate the simplicity and cleaner look.
Bfd70
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Wow! That was the most fun debate I’ve read in a while.
My only $.02 is that 1. a little hyperbole is fun and keeps threads interesting and 2. I NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a Superfluous debate. He could prove water isn’t wet.
My only $.02 is that 1. a little hyperbole is fun and keeps threads interesting and 2. I NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a Superfluous debate. He could prove water isn’t wet.
Canuck Panda
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The ones came through my door I took photos and measurements. Once I got comfortable with the logistics I had some drop shipped directly to jacket maker to save on shipping and stupid custom duties.
I get the desire for thicker leather now. Where is HH121? He was the first one, buying his own 6oz leather. I just followed.
I couldn't buy any Kokkolan direct (no reliable retail). You and RedDevil bought at wholesale volume and got some amazing hides. I got my Kokkolan from SB. It's really premium stuff.
Horse hides are rare, and less supply. Same with game animal hides like moose. I think cowhide Langlitz would be just fine.
But wait what? You can get a Columbia without the tail? The Langlitz "add 5" to the back length" thing made me lose sleep for many nights. Hope everything turns out fine in 8 months.
Superfluous
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^ This!
Superfluous
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I have no issue with people posting opinions, as opinions. I take exception when people post subjective opinions as objective truisms, and attempt to subjugate/quash other opinions and indirectly demean others in the process. Stating that those who favor Shinki have been conned and manipulated by undeserved hype is disrespectful to those members of TFL that favor Shinki. It suggests that they are uninformed and gullible. That is personal! Respectful discourse is paramount, respectful being the operative word. Divergent opinions are great, so long as both sides respect each other in the process.
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It is certainly fun to buy your own leather, but generally makes the project more expensive overall... apart when you buy wholesale... but that is more complicated to deal with lol
I think the SB offering is of kokkolan is a steal, granted it is the printed hide which limits the wastage but still I wonder how they do it.
That reminds me that I have lighter navy CXL I bought from tannery row probably five years ago. about 10 sq/m... so maybe two jackets. What would you do with it if you had it in hand?
Featured products
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John Lofgren Monkey Boots Shinki Horsebuttt - $1,136 The classic monkey boot silhouette in an incredibly rich Shinki russet horse leather. -
Grant Stone Diesel Boot Dark Olive Chromexcel - $395 Goodyear welted, Horween Chromexcel, classic good looks. -
Schott 568 Vandals Jacket - $1,250 The classic Perfecto motorcycle jacket, in a very special limited-edition Schott double rider style.
I guess I just don’t find that opinion all that offensive to the shinkilluminati. But agree to disagree. Certainly we should be respectful, but I like that people here have very strong opinions.
Superfluous
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@Superfluous
First off, you know how much I respect and downright love you, man.
Also this is more a train of thought post than a counter-argument because in essence, I agree with your post.
My comment didn't mean hate on Shinki and I wasn't tryna establish a hierarchy based solely on leather of my preference sitting at the top, all the rest being ****, simply because as I have stated many times so far - something that members who know me even superficially can confirm - Shinki in all its aspects fully qualifies as a leather of my preference.
Thus I am not saying nor have I ever said Shinki is a bad / ugly / whatever hide.
My comment was a jab at the hype that had build up around it. And you cannot possibly be telling me hype ain't real. I believe that you are wrong that the term Shinki isn't like 110% used as a marketing tool in many to ALL newly emerging makers, who happen to get a hold of it.
Also, did you notice how we're seeing a lot more of "Italian leather" lately? In that regard, lemme ask you something, which new maker do you believe would get the attention of the heritage crowd; One that advertises their jackets as being made of Shinki, or other that does not disclose the origin of the leather they use, regardless of how well it looks on the photos?
The mid-range part of my comment came off inflammatory but not because I intended it in such a manner, but because of all the aforementioned hype, you, me (earlier on), and many others have pretty much deified it.
Mid-range Italian leather is beautiful. High-end Italian leather is seriously on another level altogether. This is of course all subjective opinion but the fact, I believe, remains that most people who have handled enough leather, will generally put aside the highest end grade stuff will agree to it indeed being something special.
But sure, let's put Shinki at a high-end side of the spectrum; It's got all the characteristics and it's a gorgeous hide. I've no trouble with that.
What annoys me to some extent is, again, the hype and thus consequently complete disregard for so many other wonderful leather - So well illustrated in @Marc mndt's post in this thread - resulting in all else falling into oblivion. This micro-cosmos of heritage fashion, instead of being a sort of an anti-fashion, a rebel of a sort that wasn't suppose to succumb to any rules, turned into such a ridiculous hype-train of elitism where if you're not doing the exact same thing over and over again, you're doing it wrong - but - that's what you get when normies get a hold of something. But that's irrelevant.
My point is, we often see posts like that here, too. How many times have you read a comment stating that the posters favorite leather is Shinki, therefore they're not sure if the jacket they're inquiring about is as good or holds similar value, even though the jacket is made out of clearly fantastic leather. In 99% of cases, posters favorite leather happens to be the only leather they've handled.
This reminds me; Some time ago, I was reading a discussion that took place in the comments section on Grailed, under the Chrome Hearts leather jacket listing, regarding the price which was little over $7000 at the time. That same jacket now sells for close to $20K. Irrelevant.
Opinions of all kinds were being thrown around but the comment that got my attention was something along the line of "I can get three Langlitz jackets for this kind of money!" to which another person replied that following such logic, they could get 70 Wilson's.
This of course steered the discussion toward the question of quality, with almost everyone involved agreeing that Langlitz has to be a superior maker, which prompted the poster who suggested 70 Wilson's to explain why Langlitz falls short compared to Chrome Hearts. Needless to say, this infuriated me at first but the way they worded the argument left me wondering ever since if what they're saying just might hold some merit. Dude objectively compared both jackets I could not detect any significant bias.
It was a discussion that I would in all likelihood forgot all about had I not, sometime later, acquired a Chrome Hearts leather vest and the moment I unboxed it, I realized the poster that compared Langlitz not so favorably to CH, was indeed on to something - and at the same time, it struck me how much of a victim I was to all the hype built around Langlitz which, to me personally, at this point in time has more cons than pros.
All I'm saying is, research further, research more. Outside of this micro-cosmos where only a couple of Japanese manufacturers rule and where only a handful of styles are acceptable, all else immediately dismissed of being lesser in quality/value (under the pretense of being 'Okay for the price'). As @red devil stated, fashion may appear to be mostly trash but at the same time, a good pieces that emerge leave one wonder what is it that I've been believing in this whole time.
I can correct my previous statement; Shinki can be called a high-end hide BUT you may find something else that will not just de-prioritize it but just might kick it off your list altogether. Don't base your purchases just on a marketing ploy. That of course isn't aimed toward you, Super, as you've dabbed into Vintage as well and you know what you do and do not like (for instance, I really respect your opinions concerning Lewis Leathers as you've reached them through careful research) - I'm just saying that in general.
Last but not least, a photo of my Chrome Hearts vest. Zoom in on the leather. And y'know what, lemme tell you that from knowing as much as I do about you & your preference in jackets, I think that should you be presented with a choice between this hide and, say, RMC's Shinki, with the ability to handle both of course, I'm 99.9% sure you'd say you want your jacket made outta this.
Great post. Thank you.
Interestingly, we here on TFL do not discuss super high end Italian leather, primarily because it is rarely used for vintage reproductions and/or by the repro manufacturers favored by TFL. That said, there are some Italian leathers that are other-worldly. I own several Loro Piana, RRL Purple Label, Zegna, and Sulka jackets made from absolutely sublime leather. I don't wear these jackets any more, and most are packed away, because my design preferences have changed and I now prefer vintage repros. That said, IMHO, the leather used for these jackets is on another level compared to my vintage repros. The leather is also very different and difficult to compare. Importantly, and contrary to certain opinions, the leather is not always thinner. Some of these jackets are made from remarkably robust, hearty leathers, including the most amazing deerskins. Nevertheless, the leather is different from vintage repro leather. The leather is more refined and pliable, soft to the touch. The leather is also incongruent with the vintage jackets and repros discussed here, that I now favor. I have come to love and prefer the more rugged leathers appropriately used for vintage repros, but these superlative Italian hides nevertheless deserve recognition (even though I no longer wear them).
In other words, I agree.
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Canuck Panda
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You're right buying leather and getting it made can cost a bit more. But once I have done it I cannot really go back, unless it's priced like the SB's Elg jacket. There is something about looking for leather before dreaming up the jacket. Takes months to year longer and may cost more. But these special ones will stay in the closet forever where as the other ones may be leaving soon.
10 sq meter is about 107 sq feet. Sorry pounds and feet here. Tannery Row hides are very clean, in theory you could get one cross zip (40 sf), one straight zip (35sf) and one vest (25sf) out of it. Not a lot of vest around why? I kinda dig them. That's what I am doing with my leftovers in the end.
ABCD
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I used to be into those brands as well when back when I wore a lot more formal wear. Those leathers are indeed sublime but also a bit boring, because they're too perfect imo. So perfect that you'd almost think they are artificial. There's one that I still wear because it think looks good on boots and denim too.
TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead
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Kind of reminds me of Angus beef and American Kobe and how they compare to prime and choice, etc. Obviously it gets more complicated with dry age vs wet age, and then how long the ageing period. And then whole other tiers with true wagyu.
10 people are going to put it in their mouth and have 10 different opinions. Some people might not like the concentration of flavors, or the extra fat, or the texture of one vs. the other. Good luck convincing any one of them what is the so called "best".
On one hand, yeah, who cares what someone tells you on an internet forum. If you really like your _____ tanned leather jacket, awesome. Wear the hell out of it. Someone telling you it's the best or the worst or the middle shouldn't matter.
But I think it's simple human psychology. Especially on a higher tier item. You spend a lot of money on something, you don't want someone telling you it was a waste. It questions your judgement, taste, etc.
I haven't handled a lot of super high end tier leathers (FW, RMC, Himel, etc.). Probably Thedi, the FL shinki, and maybe some of the Aero stuff is at the pinnacle of my collection. For one reason or another, they are "better" than my previous experience of mostly mall type jackets. Grain, texture, thickness, pliability, etc. But to say anyone of them is the absolute best or is better is ridiculous.
What kind of car is the best? A Ferrari. But that's when I'm cruising on an open stretch of smoothly paved road. Oh, and a nice SUV for when I got to shlep the kids to school and stop by Costco. And now that I think about it, maybe a Lexus or a Mercedes when I got date night and we're picking up another couple and going to dinner. And maybe a motorcycle would be great for those awesome weather moments or to help beat the traffic. Shoot, maybe a pick up truck because my brother just called me to help him pick up a sofa. Maybe a Humvee for when the zombie apocalypse comes. So yeah, it's all the best.
10 people are going to put it in their mouth and have 10 different opinions. Some people might not like the concentration of flavors, or the extra fat, or the texture of one vs. the other. Good luck convincing any one of them what is the so called "best".
On one hand, yeah, who cares what someone tells you on an internet forum. If you really like your _____ tanned leather jacket, awesome. Wear the hell out of it. Someone telling you it's the best or the worst or the middle shouldn't matter.
But I think it's simple human psychology. Especially on a higher tier item. You spend a lot of money on something, you don't want someone telling you it was a waste. It questions your judgement, taste, etc.
I haven't handled a lot of super high end tier leathers (FW, RMC, Himel, etc.). Probably Thedi, the FL shinki, and maybe some of the Aero stuff is at the pinnacle of my collection. For one reason or another, they are "better" than my previous experience of mostly mall type jackets. Grain, texture, thickness, pliability, etc. But to say anyone of them is the absolute best or is better is ridiculous.
What kind of car is the best? A Ferrari. But that's when I'm cruising on an open stretch of smoothly paved road. Oh, and a nice SUV for when I got to shlep the kids to school and stop by Costco. And now that I think about it, maybe a Lexus or a Mercedes when I got date night and we're picking up another couple and going to dinner. And maybe a motorcycle would be great for those awesome weather moments or to help beat the traffic. Shoot, maybe a pick up truck because my brother just called me to help him pick up a sofa. Maybe a Humvee for when the zombie apocalypse comes. So yeah, it's all the best.
ABCD
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I consider Thedi super high end tier. Some of their leathers are tumbled, washed, hand dyed, hand waxed and what have you.
Agreed, finding that special batch of leather is a lot of fun.
I originally bought it to use it on a car coat type of jacket, but ended not using it. I am thinking of bringing a few of the hides to Electric Leather Studio - whenever that becomes possible - to make a lightning or a flow. But I will have quite a bit leftover... so maybe a crosszip and a vest would be a good idea. I need to explore vests, not sure I can pull them off.
Superfluous
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^ This!
Mrfrown
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Agreed, finding that special batch of leather is a lot of fun.
I originally bought it to use it on a car coat type of jacket, but ended not using it. I am thinking of bringing a few of the hides to Electric Leather Studio - whenever that becomes possible - to make a lightning or a flow. But I will have quite a bit leftover... so maybe a crosszip and a vest would be a good idea. I need to explore vests, not sure I can pull them off.
@red devil if you can pull off this extremely wide array of moto styles you can do pretty much anything, vest will be cake walk for you. Very small learning curve and you’ll be there!
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