How many Brits are here?

[Mr Badger]

Although I grew up in Leicestershire, I lived in London for 17 years and it feels like home – at least, all of what used to be the poor areas I lived in do, although I had to shift on a total of 17 times as gentrification kept on knocking at my door!

Multiculturalism is a great thing, in all forms. After all, we are defined by where we feel at home, right? Peacoat felt at home in East Anglia, whereas I feel the same way about Memphis, and so it goes... there are few places with more of a mongrel makeup than the UK and the US – from the Romans in Britain to the latest immigrants – and this has brought a huge amount of good, on countless levels. I'm a bit of a curmudgeon (prolly lived in London too long!), but I'm constantly amazed by the wonderful things that people can do. Dunno about you lot, but I consider meself a citizen of the world, even tho' (as the old song had it), "I don't get around much anymore..."

 

[Lokar]

Well, you know, i order to qualify as Irish in America, you have to have at least one great, great grandparent who ate a potato once. Never having visited the place is also a plus.

I kid, I kid.... well.... a bit.

For a long time I never got why so many people from the US did that - I wondered whether it was just that the stereotype of the Irish is "cool". However, a friend from the US pointed out the simple fact that America has such a short history - I can trace my family history back for hundreds of years and it's just England as far as you can go, but that's generally not the case in the States. To get their sense of "identity", many feel they need to know their European roots, and when you live in a European melting pot like the US, you're going to be able to say you belong to pretty much any country you want if you trace back far enough.

Doesn't make it any better for my Irish friends though - all of them are thoroughly irritated by it.

 

[Tomasso]

Doesn't make it any better for my Irish friends though - all of them are thoroughly irritated by it.

That's true, I've learned not to discuss my Irish ancestry with the Irish. We're the rich spoiled progeny of those who ran away when the times got tough.

 

[Puzzicato]

For a long time I never got why so many people from the US did that - I wondered whether it was just that the stereotype of the Irish is "cool". However, a friend from the US pointed out the simple fact that America has such a short history - I can trace my family history back for hundreds of years and it's just England as far as you can go, but that's generally not the case in the States. To get their sense of "identity", many feel they need to know their European roots, and when you live in a European melting pot like the US, you're going to be able to say you belong to pretty much any country you want if you trace back far enough.

Doesn't make it any better for my Irish friends though - all of them are thoroughly irritated by it.

Australia has a much shorter history of white settlement and they don't do it after about the second generation. We actually have a new staff member at work. She's from Philadelphia, but has had to stop describing herself as Scottish-German because she has never been to Scotland, her parents and grandparents have never been to Scotland and the Scots in the office were teasing her.

 

[AllaboutEve]

There are quite a few of us ladies here in Hackney, we might live like peasants, but we dress like royalty.

 

[Lokar]

Australia has a much shorter history of white settlement and they don't do it after about the second generation. We actually have a new staff member at work. She's from Philadelphia, but has had to stop describing herself as Scottish-German because she has never been to Scotland, her parents and grandparents have never been to Scotland and the Scots in the office were teasing her.

Australia is a much more sensible place though.

 

[bumphrey hogart]

Haven't been to London for over 25 years and can't imagine anything that could persuade me,Truro is as big a city as I can face and only then when I absolutely have to,(that reminds me,must get a new billhook for the other halfs' birthday),being a slightly eccentric country gentleman suits me much better! Just got to go and check on the cider.

 

[Edward]

I'm lucky in that I have British citizenship from being born in Northern Ireland, could have Irish citizenship if I wanted it for the same reason and American citizenship cos my dads a yank.

It's not birth in the Six Counties that grants a right to Irish citizenship, the grandparent rule comes into play. Basically, you have to have had at least on grandparent born either in the Republic, or in any part of Ireland prior to partition in 1921. I qualify on the latter ground, and keep meaning to get around to sorting out my Irish passport. I've had a British one for years, but the only advantage to that was the Visa Waiver into the US - hasn't that gone now? You would be entitled to US Citizenship, though of course that would mean giving up both Irish and British options - if memory serves, it's a requirement for the US that you reject all prior ctizenships you may have held in favour of the US option.

Ed, I'm with you on that. London is quite a different place to anywhere else. This is largely due to that failure of a MultiKulti idea, eh? I was reading Time Out during the World Cup and they listed how many people from each country represented were in London and where to go watch that team. There were something like 800, 000 people from Nigeria in london, and about 600, 000 from Ghana. I was stunned. And happy. I love MultiKulti!! It's what makes this place special.

Jings, yes (and if it upsets Paul Dacre, then so much the better! ).

Australia has a much shorter history of white settlement and they don't do it after about the second generation. We actually have a new staff member at work. She's from Philadelphia, but has had to stop describing herself as Scottish-German because she has never been to Scotland, her parents and grandparents have never been to Scotland and the Scots in the office were teasing her.

I'll never forget being at a festival in Armagh, 1995, I think, when a singer in an American band got up in front of the audience and said in a broad Yankee accent "It's so great to be on my first visit in Ireland - I feel like I'm coming home. I'm Irish - " At which point some wag in the crowd (which was already rolling its collective eyes) loudly commented "No, you're not." Singer shut up pretty quickly after that. lol

I'd always assumed the hyphenated-American phenomenon was partly down to the 'young country' society as mentioned above, and partly a tacit acknowledgement of the Native American culture that went before and was significantly affected by European settlers. Australia, of course, has its own native population too, though I had the impression they're still evolving a sense of where and how that fits in with the psyche of those descended from settlers.

 

[Smithy]

Australia has a much shorter history of white settlement and they don't do it after about the second generation. We actually have a new staff member at work. She's from Philadelphia, but has had to stop describing herself as Scottish-German because she has never been to Scotland, her parents and grandparents have never been to Scotland and the Scots in the office were teasing her.

I'm another one who finds the American "I'm Irish/Scottish/German/etc, etc" when they're umpteenth generation unusual.

I'm originally from NZ, a country even younger than Australia, and you don't get that there either. I'm only a second generation NZer but I'd never call myself British or English even though I was brought up in a family which was perhaps quite English. I'm from British ancestry but I'm a Kiwi and always will be.

Although I did get called a South Sea Pom by an older Aussie the other day which made me chuckle

 

[Peacoat]

Edward: The requirement is that one must swear "allegiance" only to the United States. Not sure that one must give up all other citizenships, but that may well be the way the wording has been interpreted. It has been almost twenty years since I looked into it, so things may have changed by now. I researched the citizenship question for a UK couple who have been working here for over thirty years.

They ended up not making application for citizenship as the husband decided he couldn't swear allegiance only to the U.S. Even though he had been away from England for almost as long as he had been here (since he was 18), his English roots ran too deep. He has now been here almost twice as long as he lived in England, and he still feels the same way. I don't blame him. I'm not sure what the wife's position was (she is Scottish), but she didn't apply either.

Tricky business, this renouncing allegiance to one's country of birth.

 

[Puzzicato]

There are quite a few of us ladies here in Hackney, we might live like peasants, but we dress like royalty.

My office is moving over to Hackney at the end of the year! I will look out for you.

I'd always assumed the hyphenated-American phenomenon was partly down to the 'young country' society as mentioned above, and partly a tacit acknowledgement of the Native American culture that went before and was significantly affected by European settlers. Australia, of course, has its own native population too, though I had the impression they're still evolving a sense of where and how that fits in with the psyche of those descended from settlers.

Interesting hypothesis. I think it has a lot to do with assimilation. The population was overwhelmingly Anglo-Celtic (as my Irish professor used to say "Don't use that expression, it sounds like we're in bed with the enemy") for such a long time that to be anything else was other and not right, so people would define themselves as Australian and leave the past behind. With more multicultural migration post-war, from the 1970s on there seemed to be a reclaiming of "ethnic" identities, so people will now say that they are Greek or Lebanese in the second generation, but by the third generation they'd have to say they were Greek-Maltese-Chinese so they just say Australian.

I'm originally from NZ, a country even younger than Australia, and you don't get that there either. I'm only a second generation NZer but I'd never call myself British or English even though I was brought up in a family which was perhaps quite English. I'm from British ancestry but I'm a Kiwi and always will be.

Likewise. My mother is English; I am an Australian living in England.

 

[Smithy]

Likewise. My mother is English; I am an Australian living in England.

Don't know about Aussie passports of the day but interestingly NZ passports had the words "British Subject" on them right up until the late 1970s.

 

[W-D Forties]

Hello chaps and chapesses. Am I too late to join in the conversation?

I'm originally from Liverpool, now live in Chester, but spent 12 years in London, and I have to say that apart from the guns and gangs it's a lovely friendly place. I met some of my best friends just walking the dog. Almost makes up for getting that phone call telling me not to hurry home as 'there's an armed seige going on two doors down.'

Mr Badger - was your avatar picture taken at the fabulous Rivoli Ballroom in Brockley by any chance?

 

[Wolfen]

It's not birth in the Six Counties that grants a right to Irish citizenship, the grandparent rule comes into play. Basically, you have to have had at least on grandparent born either in the Republic, or in any part of Ireland prior to partition in 1921. I qualify on the latter ground, and keep meaning to get around to sorting out my Irish passport. I've had a British one for years, but the only advantage to that was the Visa Waiver into the US - hasn't that gone now? You would be entitled to US Citizenship, though of course that would mean giving up both Irish and British options - if memory serves, it's a requirement for the US that you reject all prior ctizenships you may have held in favour of the US option.

You dont have to give up other citizenships as I currently hold both British and American.

And the current requirements for Irish citizenship are "Every person born on the island of Ireland before 1 January, 2005 is entitled to be an Irish citizen." (Taken from the Irish Embassy Dept of foreign Affairs website http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=267) Note the use of island of Ireland. That would include the 6 counties/Northern Ireland/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-based-on-your-political-beliefs...

 

[FRASER_NASH]

Is this the EMPIRE LOUNGE..? (Taking off hat and coat). Ex-Pat Brit signing in.

 

[Hereward]

I am English if that helps.

 

[dragonaxe]

Hi Hereward. Welcome aboard the Brit Express...currently stuck just outside Crewe following a points failure

 

[Edward]

Edward: The requirement is that one must swear "allegiance" only to the United States. Not sure that one must give up all other citizenships, but that may well be the way the wording has been interpreted. It has been almost twenty years since I looked into it, so things may have changed by now. I researched the citizenship question for a UK couple who have been working here for over thirty years.

They ended up not making application for citizenship as the husband decided he couldn't swear allegiance only to the U.S. Even though he had been away from England for almost as long as he had been here (since he was 18), his English roots ran too deep. He has now been here almost twice as long as he lived in England, and he still feels the same way. I don't blame him. I'm not sure what the wife's position was (she is Scottish), but she didn't apply either.

Tricky business, this renouncing allegiance to one's country of birth.

Ah, yes - that's what I'm thinking of; I may have picked up incorrectly the idea of getting rid of other citizenships, not sure (though thinking specifically of 'citizenship' in a technical context strictly relating to passports, as distinct from personal identity and nationality.... I could imagine myself taking american Citizenship, for instance, but I would never consider myself American by culture / personal identity; similiary, I hold British Citizenship but don't identify as British. Subtle distinctions).

(as my Irish professor used to say "Don't use that expression, it sounds like we're in bed with the enemy")

lol

You dont have to give up other citizenships as I currently hold both British and American.

Did they change the rules on that? It is possible I have confused the form of words used in the oath of Allegiance to the USA with the technical reality of the passport situation... [huh]

And the current requirements for Irish citizenship are "Every person born on the island of Ireland before 1 January, 2005 is entitled to be an Irish citizen." (Taken from the Irish Embassy Dept of foreign Affairs website http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=267) Note the use of island of Ireland. That would include the 6 counties/Northern Ireland/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-based-on-your-political-beliefs...

Oh, now that's an interesting change.... that's happened at some point within (I think) the last eight years (must be about that since I last looked into it - I was about to start getting into that again as a way of avoiding the ID Register, but that's been dropped now, so). I presume that this must have been introduced at least in part as an element of the post-Articles 2&3 peace process. Also on a practical level I imagine it puts easier limitations upon citizenship than the old rule; I know there had long been rumblings of dissatisfaction in the Dail over the number of people who were able to acquire Irish passports (and thereby become, to some greater or lesser degree) without even having an intention ever to set foot on the island. When you add into the mix the position in relation to Britain, you can see why the UK would have welcomed an end to the Grandparent Rule (under the British Nationality Act 1948, an Irish Citizen has identical rights within the UK to a British Citizen, thus someone turned down for British Citizenship could be 'as good as' if they were entitled to Irish).

 

[Wolfen]

Did they change the rules on that? It is possible I have confused the form of words used in the oath of Allegiance to the USA with the technical reality of the passport situation... [huh]

In my case I was born in a Belfast hospital and issued a British birth certificate. My father, the day following my birth, went to the American consulate in Belfast to register me as a citizen of the USA born out of the country. He did the same for all my siblings. Thats about all I know on the subject. No one has ever made me swear any oaths to any country.

Oh, now that's an interesting change.... that's happened at some point within (I think) the last eight years (must be about that since I last looked into it - I was about to start getting into that again as a way of avoiding the ID Register, but that's been dropped now, so). I presume that this must have been introduced at least in part as an element of the post-Articles 2&3 peace process. Also on a practical level I imagine it puts easier limitations upon citizenship than the old rule; I know there had long been rumblings of dissatisfaction in the Dail over the number of people who were able to acquire Irish passports (and thereby become, to some greater or lesser degree) without even having an intention ever to set foot on the island. When you add into the mix the position in relation to Britain, you can see why the UK would have welcomed an end to the Grandparent Rule (under the British Nationality Act 1948, an Irish Citizen has identical rights within the UK to a British Citizen, thus someone turned down for British Citizenship could be 'as good as' if they were entitled to Irish).

From what I remember it has something to do with the peace process. All I care about is that I qualify under current rulings.

 

[Edward]

In my case I was born in a Belfast hospital and issued a British birth certificate. My father, the day following my birth, went to the American consulate in Belfast to register me as a citizen of the USA born out of the country. He did the same for all my siblings. Thats about all I know on the subject. No one has ever made me swear any oaths to any country.

Ah, yes - that would be a different situation than taking on citizenship as an adult immigrating to the US. Definitely an advantage to have - GreenCards don't grow on trees!

From what I remember it has something to do with the peace process. All I care about is that I qualify under current rulings.

I think most of us are probably the same!