Horween USA and Aero Leather Joint Statement

[caffeinated]

That's great that you'll be in Seattle for a visit! Bring your jacket and we can tell ya if it's steerhide or horsehide...

As far as your zipper goes, we'll be glad to change the length (longer or shorter) and reinstall it so that it's just the way you want it!

Awesome! Thank you, that will put my mind at ease.

 

[irow]

That's great that you'll be in Seattle for a visit! Bring your jacket and we can tell ya if it's steerhide or horsehide...

As far as your zipper goes, we'll be glad to change the length (longer or shorter) and reinstall it so that it's just the way you want it!

A bit off topic, just curious what would be the step process for replacing a zipper? Do you do it by hand and sew back the thread into each hole in the leather or is there somehow a machine that can do it?

 

[Carrie @ Insurrection]

A bit off topic, just curious what would be the step process for replacing a zipper? Do you do it by hand and sew back the thread into each hole in the leather or is there somehow a machine that can do it?

To do it properly, you need a machine that's made for heavy materials (such as leather) and you have to go pretty slowly for replacement so you get the replacement in hole-for-hole. I use a SunStar KM-380BL (see machine in photo!) and here's my finished work on David Aldana's crashed (like 8 times!) suit!

 

[Norwayman]

I dont write much in this Forum, but I read all the Posts about Aero and their jackets every day.
HoosierDaddy - I can not agree more. You are the man. Period..

 

[frussell]

To answer two questions regarding my Long Half Belt a few pages back, I ordered it from Mark Moye in early June of 2011, received it some time in Feb., 2012. It is cotton drill lined, regarding the weight issue question. Any more specific answers needed, please PM me so I don't clutter this thread up too much. Holly got back to me today, couldn't confirm anything about my replacement until she runs my request by Ken, and implied that my jacket would be started sometime after the Christmas rush, perhaps in January. No word on possible cost or timeline yet, she will contact me sometime next week with details. Thanks, Frank

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

here's my finished work on David Aldana's crashed (like 8 times!) suit!

Awesome! Talk about one amazing customer to have. Aldana being one of the few individuals who instantly comes to mind when you think motorcycle leathers (he who will be forever linked with the "skeleton" leathers).

 

[Jack Burton]

**I can't believe that only one person, within a company that works with the various hides on a daily basis over the course of many years, is able to make such distinctions and the others are not.**

Who ever said this?? It was 'announced' that others within Aero 'could' tell the difference..but decided to sell steer as HH anyway(or go along with it). That seems to be the whole point of the annnoucement along with other post from Aero. It also 'seems' that Aero(after Ken coming out of retirement for other inconsistencies)was alerted to the problem by returned jackets that were labled HH..but actually consisted of steer. Now the spokesman Ken(founder)..and Daughter(Holly) are up to their elbows expertly informing concerned customers of exactly what they have.
I swear...it's amazing what some that are reading this thread can still come up with. Ten pages from now it will probably be even worse.
HD

I think some people don't fully read the threads from start to finish.

My take on Aero's situation is that every 3 months or so, another layer of the onion is peeled and another problem is revealed to us e.g. AeroUSA, Will leaving the company, the hide substitutions. I suspect we're only hearing about half of the problems but nonetheless, the underlying cause is the same, serious mismanagement in the past couple of years.

If Aero was originally Mr. Calder's company, I'm glad he and his daughter are back at the helm. Sometimes founders need to buy their businesses back to get things right again.

 

[rocketeer]

If Aero was originally Mr. Calder's company, I'm glad he and his daughter are back at the helm. Sometimes founders need to buy their businesses back to get things right again.

Yes Aero was Ken Calders company, started as far as I know in the little shop in Falcon Road, Battersea South London.
I have a Barnstormer in Heavy Steer and a couple of Highwayman jackets in FQHH, there is a differance in texture and also the broken in look of the jacket. Alsoy Highwayman is a much stiffet jacket at first wearing but once on and warmed up it is great.
Just my 50 pence worth.

 

[ForestForTheTrees]

Removed

 

[Unwissender]

What do you think of a time out on this issue?

I think that the most pressing questions are all answered. If it is discussed here or in another thread much further, the Aero makes only further lot of unnecessary work. Holly has read along here.

I'll contact Aero for me again when it's all over. Then I will order again a great jacket from Aero and am glad that I can buy such a jacket.

You all have a great weekend, very particularly the team at Aero!

 

[eClairvaux]

The idea or theory of some that it can't be done except by DNA tests. Yet Aero announces otherwise. That some of their steer was sold as FQHH. Do you actually think that they are running DNA tests on each hide that they sell?
HD

Hey HD, I think you missed something in my post. I said I have the possibility to have this done for the fun of it. I don't think it is necessary and I don't think Aero will or should do it.

Anyway, for me it's just worth a try, because after all I will know a bit more, like what kind of horse it has been. I also wanted to get a chemical analysis of possible chrome VI residues and the dosage accross my collection of Horween chrome-tanned samples (both steer and horse) for a long time. If I get the chance, I'll share the results.

However, I feel I was very lucky to get my Aero jackets in what seems like a "golden age" now, when I could customize my orders to a level no longer available, waiting was reduced to around 3 months, leading to my small collection of one-offs. Apparently they are also made of the hides I specified, so I have no reason to complain, much less to do any testing by Ken or some lab rat.

 

[irow]

To do it properly, you need a machine that's made for heavy materials (such as leather) and you have to go pretty slowly for replacement so you get the replacement in hole-for-hole. I use a SunStar KM-380BL (see machine in photo!) and here's my finished work on David Aldana's crashed (like 8 times!) suit!

Great to know! I was wondering what # needle do you use? I have a industrial Juki sewing machine and was wondering if getting a #18/110 needle would be too big? or too small? What size would you suggest?

Is a triangle leather point needle really needed? or would a normal needle work as well?

 

[BobJ]

Since one of the machinists was let go along with Will, I wonder if all the mislabelled and hybrid jackets might have that same person's name sewn on. Otherwise, either there were other machinists in on the scam, or machinists can't tell the difference between horse and steer even when they're cutting and sewing it. Hmmm...

 

[wdw]

The experienced machinist who made my hybrid is still there (I met her recently), so I think that other than any already implicated and let go, nobody noticed.

I actually discussed this specifically with Julie the lead machinist yesterday at the factory, and she told me, and showed me why, that even with 20+ years experience she just thought she was working with horse hides of differing thicknesses.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as just identifying jackets made by a rogue machinist.

 

[Don Tomaso]

Yesterday, when it was cold, I was wearing my LHB and it didn't get stiff. But I heard FQHH gets stiff when cold. Now I'm afraid it might be steer and all my chums will poke fun at me. I think I have to kill myself!:eeek::eeek::eeek:


As said before, I think some guys should relax a bit and maybe even start thinking.
We know a few facts, namely, steer is by no means inferior to horse and it is actually even more expensive by the square foot. On the other hand, horsehide jackets are more expensive than steer because horse is more difficult to cut and you have more waste. FQHH also is in a limited supply, exclusiveness explains higher prices. Nevertheless, taking the difference in price between steer jacket and FQHH as around 100 GBP and the raw material even more expensive, why, for the grace of god, did Will start these shenanigans if there wasn't even anything to gain in them? Moneywise?
I'm now leaving the realm of facts and venture into the kingdom of speculation. When I ordered my LHB in February this year I heard that HH was in very short supply, Japanese and Chinese competitors of Aero draining the market, Horween sold out, prices skyrocketing even on already placed orders, the works. In the end, this was all greatly exaggerated, but there might have been a grain of trouth within. My guess is that Will tried to satisfy an overwhelming demand by replacing one difficult to come by material by something else that technically speaking was as good. He even went that far to choose a material more expensive than horsehide to make good for the stuff he couldn't even get for money and good words because Horween's was sold out.
So, you see my conclusion quite clearly, I'm sure this whole mess didn't happen to "milk" the customers. From all I've heard, Will always acted to the contrary, he took jackets back when the customer wasn't totally happy and made the jackets new, he allowed for a lot of customization without charging and all that, this doesn't look to me like somebody who's ripping off cutomers. I think - pure speculation again - he tried to satisfy the demand by any means, knowing, expert he is, the material he used to bridge the gap was top-notch as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't HH the substitude during WWII for steerhide because that was in short supply? Anyway, armies are not famous for using the best material available to clad their men...
But be that as it may, I think, Aero, over the years, supplied us with beautiful jackets at a reasonable price - try to find similar jackets for under 800 Euro in a shop, good luck - and they will do all reasonable steps to make good this issue. I'm not sure how much old anger has been stirred up between Ken and Will, leaving to such a harsh "purge" including the issuing of this "joint statement", which to me is a bit like "burning the bridges", and this is none of my business anyway. But then the only side of the story we know is Ken's and in such a case the view of one side is never the full picture. With all we say and write here, we should keep this into account.
I know the jacket I have, my first Aero, has some flaws with measurements and also some weird things Aero insists in doing, like attaching the linings so close to the hems and cuffs. But on the other hand, this is was distinuishes it from an industry product. You may call it flaws, I call it character. Same thing but easier to handle when named properly.

 

[wild_balls]

I was wearing my LHB size 38 that weighs ca 3.3 kg in -10 degrees celsius yesterday! It is supposed to be FQHH, but confirmed by pictures to be C/X Steerhide ( maybe a mix )! I don't care about what hide it is any longer, it is a great jacket, I love it, it's a keeper!
It got quite stiff in the cold??? I Think both Steer and Horse get stiff in the cold.

Cheers Joakim

 

[Lungomare]

A lot of redundant statements and fanciful specs.

Enjoy your jacket, even if it is not what you had ordered, but this thread is not >keep your jackets and be happy it is an Aero at least< but

- steer was used instead of horse and so the jackets mislabeled
- there are customers like me that are happy with their jackets but try to find out what happened and why,
- and try to get a replacement or at least a discount on their next order - with reason!

Kind regards,

Johannes

Yesterday, when it was cold, I was wearing my LHB and it didn't get stiff. But I heard FQHH gets stiff when cold. Now I'm afraid it might be steer and all my chums will poke fun at me. I think I have to kill myself!:eeek::eeek::eeek:


As said before, I think some guys should relax a bit and maybe even start thinking.
We know a few facts, namely, steer is by no means inferior to horse and it is actually even more expensive by the square foot. On the other hand, horsehide jackets are more expensive than steer because horse is more difficult to cut and you have more waste. FQHH also is in a limited supply, exclusiveness explains higher prices. Nevertheless, taking the difference in price between steer jacket and FQHH as around 100 GBP and the raw material even more expensive, why, for the grace of god, did Will start these shenanigans if there wasn't even anything to gain in them? Moneywise?
I'm now leaving the realm of facts and venture into the kingdom of speculation. When I ordered my LHB in February this year I heard that HH was in very short supply, Japanese and Chinese competitors of Aero draining the market, Horween sold out, prices skyrocketing even on already placed orders, the works. In the end, this was all greatly exaggerated, but there might have been a grain of trouth within. My guess is that Will tried to satisfy an overwhelming demand by replacing one difficult to come by material by something else that technically speaking was as good. He even went that far to choose a material more expensive than horsehide to make good for the stuff he couldn't even get for money and good words because Horween's was sold out.
So, you see my conclusion quite clearly, I'm sure this whole mess didn't happen to "milk" the customers. From all I've heard, Will always acted to the contrary, he took jackets back when the customer wasn't totally happy and made the jackets new, he allowed for a lot of customization without charging and all that, this doesn't look to me like somebody who's ripping off cutomers. I think - pure speculation again - he tried to satisfy the demand by any means, knowing, expert he is, the material he used to bridge the gap was top-notch as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't HH the substitude during WWII for steerhide because that was in short supply? Anyway, armies are not famous for using the best material available to clad their men...
But be that as it may, I think, Aero, over the years, supplied us with beautiful jackets at a reasonable price - try to find similar jackets for under 800 Euro in a shop, good luck - and they will do all reasonable steps to make good this issue. I'm not sure how much old anger has been stirred up between Ken and Will, leaving to such a harsh "purge" including the issuing of this "joint statement", which to me is a bit like "burning the bridges", and this is none of my business anyway. But then the only side of the story we know is Ken's and in such a case the view of one side is never the full picture. With all we say and write here, we should keep this into account.
I know the jacket I have, my first Aero, has some flaws with measurements and also some weird things Aero insists in doing, like attaching the linings so close to the hems and cuffs. But on the other hand, this is was distinuishes it from an industry product. You may call it flaws, I call it character. Same thing but easier to handle when named properly.

 

[Grayland]

I was wearing my LHB size 38 that weighs ca 3.3 kg in -10 degrees celsius yesterday! It is supposed to be FQHH, but confirmed by pictures to be C/X Steerhide ( maybe a mix )! I don't care about what hide it is any longer, it is a great jacket, I love it, it's a keeper!
It got quite stiff in the cold??? I Think both Steer and Horse get stiff in the cold.

Cheers Joakim

I have a size 38 LHB that weighs 6 lb. 4 oz or about 2.9 kg. I bought it off eBay and it was originally made for Aero US. I aasume it is HH (and since it weighs less than your jacket, I imagine it is HH). Either way, great jacket. I would imagine any really thick leather is stiff in the cold.

 

[hpalapdog]

A couple of people have mentioned having goat Aeros tagged as 'horsehide'. It's difficult to imagine how that could happen unless an unsupervised trainee was let lose on it. Or perhaps a drinking session at lunchtime dulled the senses !

Over on the vintage jackets forum kiltie posted some pictures of a nice looking acquisition from Bill Kelso. A horsehide A2 that looks like it's made of goat to my eyes.

In past times I've seen Eastman and Schott mislabelled too, so Aero's antics aren't unique.

Whist goatskin and super heavy steer are easy to id. some leathers are not, certainly not just by a photo. For example, a fine calf skin looks, and has a handle, very similar to that of the central portion of light weight horse skin. If you look at the hair follicle pores through a loupe there is no difference.

A mid weight horse tends to have a lighter handle than mid weight steer. If you have new samples of both the difference is normally quite clear.

 

[hpalapdog]

Just to clarify my post above. I'm saying the Roughwear looks like goatskin, not that it is goatskin. These days thing like chemical etching can pop the surface grain out if required.