Horween Chromexel Steer not dyed all the way through

[FredS]

It's mocha java latté. And it's not wearing in color at all, just getting great grain, wrinkles, etc. Now, if you SCRATCH it, it will indeed be lighter underneath the top layer. Shocking, I know.
If I scratch the FQHH Aero - a totally different leather - it will not change like this finish does. Different finishes have different aging characteristics. I happen to like them all.
I don't even like a new jacket so much except for the smell and shine of the finish.
But I agree with HD - shoulda done the research before offering a new jacket.

Well it turns out it is not too late to cancel or change to another leather. I just spoke to Will by phone and they haven't started on my jacket yet. So I am sleeping over it another night to decide what I should do. I could go for smooth steer or biker steer but both those hides are much thinner then the Chromexel and so that's not an option for me. And I don't want horse nor goat. So maybe the Crazy Steer is an option but that's apparently a very stiff leather requiring lots of breaking in which I don't mind either but I don't know how supple it will really end up being. I like everything about the chromexel except that I am still a bit in doubt about the black not being drum dyed but only being a top coat.
But I am slowly adapting myself to the idea that the brown showing through the black might be a desirable effect. Maybe I have been too fixated on having a totally and permanently all black jacket. But it does look to me that cost and money is the real reason that these hides are not drum dyed in black and are in fact drum dyed with a brown base color and then have a black top coat applied. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing in itself if you like the effect that creates.

By the way...another thought...On Al's website it says the Chromexcel is 3 ounces and 1.4mm thick. But when I google leather thickness charts all of them say that 3 ounces equates to about 1.2mm thick and 4 ounces is 1.6mm thick. It does not show 3.5 ounces but I would assume that 3.5 ounces would be somewhere in between the two. I notice it goes up in increments of .20mm in between every full ounce so that would equate to 1.4mm for 3.5 ounce. So I guess that Al's leather is actually 3.5 ounce and not 3 ounce if it is as stated 1.4mm thick.

 

[thor]

ButteMT61 posted "It's mocha java latté."

Scott, now you got me wanting a cup of coffee AND a new shinki leather jacket! Thanks.

 

[Sloan1874]

Actually, one of the reasons I've not gone for a black jacket is the idea that it would not develop a massive amount of character. If somebody said, 'it'll develop a brown characteristic', I'd be much more interested. Personally, don't think for a second that Horween's CXL steer and horse is exclusively top-coat only, but I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I go there and relay their response back here.

@Butte: a year of from getting it, friends of mine still lean in to inhale the smell from my HH jacket! Mind you, I love the way my shearling actually smells the same as Aero's factory - if they could bottle that, they could sell it!

 

[Deleted member 16736]

I share your concern about hand-rubbed leather and even posted about it in the past. if you study vintage leather jackets, you'll find they almost universally are dyed all the way through the hide, indicating a drum-dying process was used. Today's leather, even the so-called high-end leather used on $1000+ jackets, often are not dyed all the way through. I seriously doubt they will age as gracefully as the jackets they are trying to copy. Always ask for samples, and if the leather isn't dyed all the way through, my personal advice is to stay away.

 

[ButteMT61]

So how is it you know all this about drums, etc. and didn't know how the finish of the jacket would wear? Something is just odd in this whole thread...

 

[Rudie]

Indeed it's what I also said. The skins are drum dyed in brown and then top coated with black. But they don't drum dye in black because there is more demand for brown and it would cost too much extra time and money to drum dye in black. A drum costs around $100,000 so getting an extra drum just for dyeing in black would be too costly as would be the process of changing over from a brown dye to a black dye for drum dyeing a batch of skins. So they take the brown drum dyed skins and some of them get a top coat of dye in black. No problem with the brown top coated skins as the base is brown also but with the black topcoat the base is brown so eventually the brown will start showing through the black topcoat. Maybe not a quality issue as far as the quality of the leather is concerned and not even a quality issue if you like the effect that the brown showing through the black creates but it is a quality issue if you want your jacket to remain black. In any case I am adapting myself to the idea that the brown showing through the black might be a desirable effect. Maybe I have been too fixated on having a totally and permanently all black jacket.

Like others have said, if you want permanent black you should get black goat or a jacket from Lost Worlds. A lot of the appeal of Chromexcel stems exactly from the fact that it develops such an individual appearance due to the thin top coating rubbing off and exposing the brown leather underneath. A quality issue it is not. It just happens to be a characteristic of this special leather you are not keen on. If that's not what you are after you should get a jacket in a different leather. Especially if you don't have money to burn. Get one in a leather you really like or you will most likely never be really happy with your jacket.

 

[Rudie]

I share your concern about hand-rubbed leather and even posted about it in the past. if you study vintage leather jackets, you'll find they almost universally are dyed all the way through the hide, indicating a drum-dying process was used. Today's leather, even the so-called high-end leather used on $1000+ jackets, often are not dyed all the way through. I seriously doubt they will age as gracefully as the jackets they are trying to copy. Always ask for samples, and if the leather isn't dyed all the way through, my personal advice is to stay away.

Joel, as far as I understand it Chromexcel is drum-dyed all the way through. Afterwards a thin top coating is applied that wears off easily, exposing the brown leather underneath. Totally different horse than only partially dyed leather with most of the hide left blue.

 

[Sloan1874]

There are certain over-enthusiastic makers who have decried Horween in the past - I still have one of their hectoring PMs on this exact subject, I think you have one or two as well, Butte...

 

[FredS]

So how is it you know all this about drums, etc. and didn't know how the finish of the jacket would wear? Something is just odd in this whole thread...

Thats because I knew zilch at the time I ordered and then found the Fedora Lounge Forum as I was googling for more info on Horween's Chromexel. From reading through many of the posts here about leather and jackets I started getting lots of questions in my mind and started googling and thinking and googling and thinking and adding one plus one together and in this process I learned more and more about a subject I knew nothing about and that previously never interested me. That's how it goes in life and that's how I became knowledgeable about photography and computers (Mac) and a few other things in life

 

[ButteMT61]

There are certain over-enthusiastic makers who have decried Horween in the past - I still have one of their hectoring PMs on this exact subject, I think you have one or two as well, Butte...

Yup. Indeed makes me wonder. I'm feeling a UFO story coming on here... lol

 

[ButteMT61]

Thats because I knew zilch at the time I ordered and then found the Fedora Lounge Forum as I was googling for more info on Horween's Chromexel. From reading through many of the posts here about leather and jackets I started getting lots of questions in my mind and started googling and thinking and googling and thinking and adding one plus one together and in this process I learned more and more about a subject I knew nothing about and that previously never interested me. That's how out goes in life and that's how I became knowledgeable about photography and computers (Mac) and a few other rings in life

BIG MISTAKE! Googling leather jacket questions is like diagnosing your own illness (or symptoms) online. I'm telling you - it will kill you. lol

 

[Highwaymanman]

Maybe my single favorite jacket ever posted on here (apart from Simonc's herc!!!) is black steer. Horween? I dunno, looking at it it's maybe Connolly... but faded all to hell and all jackets should age so magnificently!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_dPDPWOrFx4/TjRHzRrU3PI/AAAAAAAAAZ8/yCuzRK2Q4UE/s640/IMG_1281.jpg

http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii577/CaptainJackBones/IMG_1280.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LWMvmy5YBK8/TjRIRPsal5I/AAAAAAAAAaI/B0k0Q4sr9Bw/s640/IMG_1283.jpg

 

[FredS]

Yup. Indeed makes me wonder. I'm feeling a UFO story coming on here... lol

Well I'm not the UFO as you put it I am not a manufacturer either but just a person who decided he wants to get a nice leather jacket (motorcycle style) to relive some of the things I did in my youth when I had a motorbike and a black leather motorcycle jacket (brand unknown or forgotten by me as it wasn't important to me at that time. I know it was black and it was leather) Now I am 60 and don't have a motorcycle but maybe I will get another one one of these days (I love a naked bike...as much as a naked chick ) so I decided I'd start by getting myself a really nice leather bike jacket, one that isn't so hardcore that it can only be worn on a bike. Needs to be worn as casual wear mostly but it must excude a real biking leather aura as well. I might never actually get another bike and that's why I want the jacket to be good for casual wear especially but also if needs be good for riding a bike with.

 

[FredS]

BIG MISTAKE! Googling leather jacket questions is like diagnosing your own illness (or symptoms) online. I'm telling you - it will kill you. lol

I am slowly becoming aware of this I wish I'd been forewarned.

 

[Capesofwrath]

Well it turns out it is not too late to cancel or change to another leather. I just spoke to Will by phone and they haven't started on my jacket yet. So I am sleeping over it another night to decide what I should do. I could go for smooth steer or biker steer but both those hides are much thinner then the Chromexel and so that's not an option for me. And I don't want horse nor goat. So maybe the Crazy Steer is an option but that's apparently a very stiff leather requiring lots of breaking in which I don't mind either but I don't know how supple it will really end up being. I like everything about the chromexel except that I am still a bit in doubt about the black not being drum dyed but only being a top coat.
But I am slowly adapting myself to the idea that the brown showing through the black might be a desirable effect. Maybe I have been too fixated on having a totally and permanently all black jacket. But it does look to me that cost and money is the real reason that these hides are not drum dyed in black and are in fact drum dyed with a brown base color and then have a black top coat applied. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing in itself if you like the effect that creates.

By the way...another thought...On Al's website it says the Chromexcel is 3 ounces and 1.4mm thick. But when I google leather thickness charts all of them say that 3 ounces equates to about 1.2mm thick and 4 ounces is 1.6mm thick. It does not show 3.5 ounces but I would assume that 3.5 ounces would be somewhere in between the two. I notice it goes up in increments of .20mm in between every full ounce so that would equate to 1.4mm for 3.5 ounce. So I guess that Al's leather is actually 3.5 ounce and not 3 ounce if it is as stated 1.4mm thick.

The CX steer is very thick leather suitable for bikes but not so good in a crowded pub maybe. If you search this site you'll find some threads on it including a couple of people who wished they'd bought something more wearer friendly. One poster wrote of someone bumping into him on a crowded tube train and the man bouncing off him with a look of horror on his face as if he'd been hit by someone wearing a suit of armour.

I've got a sample of it from Aero and it looks like it's about 1.6mm thick or so.

I agree with the poster above who points out that saving on dye is done with blue leather which is not dyed all the way through, and not expensive Horween hides. It's too expensive to be a cost saving measure. So I think you misread that piece. The interweb can mislead... They may find it uneconomic to drum dye the amount of black the produce but it is and always has been a traditional way of producing garment leather. For instance Eastman black jackets show the brown base with wear too, and I remember a thread here on a vintage finds where a black jacket from the forties had gone completely brown and the OP was wondering whether to keep it like that or re dye it.

As I said in my other post I quite like it as long as it's not too much brown showing through. It adds character and it's what authentic pre war leather was like.

I'd still like to know if Aero still puts in the label saying that it's been made with 20's dying techniques and that colour can come off though. Anyone?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Maybe my single favorite jacket ever posted on here (apart from Simonc's herc!!!) is black steer. Horween? I dunno, looking at it it's maybe Connolly... but faded all to hell and all jackets should age so magnificently!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_dPDPWOrFx4/TjRHzRrU3PI/AAAAAAAAAZ8/yCuzRK2Q4UE/s640/IMG_1281.jpg

http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii577/CaptainJackBones/IMG_1280.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LWMvmy5YBK8/TjRIRPsal5I/AAAAAAAAAaI/B0k0Q4sr9Bw/s640/IMG_1283.jpg

Thanks Hwymnman
I've been using search trying to find pics of that jacket with no luck. Glad that you found it. That's what I call 'Character'..!!
HD

 

[ButteMT61]

This awesome jacket looks like one I saw at Aero in 11/2011. It belonged to the son of the then proprietor and I fell in love with it. If it's not the same one, it looked similar and was killer.

 

[Sloan1874]

I stole a jacket from my brother that had similar character, though it only developed it once he'd been blown off his bicycle by a rogue gust of wind and sent tumbling across unfinished Tarmac. Looked fantastic after that! Ken's sporting a very characterful jacket in this pic...

 

[FredS]

This awesome jacket looks like one I saw at Aero in 11/2011. It belonged to the son of the then proprietor and I fell in love with it. If it's not the same one, it looked similar and was killer.

WOW!! right man...you just sold me completely on the idea of the brown showing through the black with age. That is one hell of a stunning patina and one hell of a nice looking jacket. Yep...that's what I like and I hope mine will end up looking as good as that. Thanks...all my doubts have disappeared

 

[ButteMT61]

LOCK 'ER DOWN HOSTS! lol

Good. Glad you came to your senses! That's how yer supposed to look. And I know for me (52) I don't have enough years left to get a jacket looking like that if I get a Lost Worlds model. Wear it, beat it, enjoy it. Good luck.