Horween Chromexel Steer not dyed all the way through

[HoosierDaddy]

:becky:

 

[FredS]

So is it normal that the Horweens Chromexell Black Steer is only a thin layer of black dye hand rubbed in on the smooth side and that the suede side and what's in between is all brown? Is this to ensure a nice patina with aging? Does drum dyed leather where the dye has permeated right through the leather not develop as nice a patina with age then?

From the Horween website:
Quote" Now that we have the canvas ready, we can start the finishing process. Chromexcel receives several hand-rubbed coats of aniline (non-pigmented) finish – this type of dye application allows for even staining of the hide" Unquote

Here the whole process is explained with photographs:
http://horween.com/101/chromexcel-2/

Ps. I see the responses(sarcastic smileys) with regards to the question whether Will would lead a customer astray with the choice of leather. Question is....does Horween itself make any different claims? I sent them an e-mail about 15 hours ago from their contact response form on their website and they haven't answered me yet.

 

[Capesofwrath]

I have a feeling this color fade is worse on the black leather CXL. The brown leather probably masks the color fade and blends in...

On my black CXL FQHH jacket, there are already faded areas around the shoulders and underarms... and the most abuse it has seen is basically getting in and out of my car a half-dozen times, lol. But again-- it's annoying how an older CXL black leather sample I have is much more fade resistant. I've put it through a lot of extreme twisting/scratching and it still looks great.

I don't mind color loss/aging in a few years, after all, this jacket is supposed to last a looong time. But if this much color loss happens after a few months, how will it look in a few years??? Yikes.

Has Horween changed their dye process recently?

Hm. I did wonder if the quality of the leather was going off a bit.

Samples do change quite a lot from year to year but with the huge increase in Horween HH production I imagine, and when you think that even ten years ago they didn't sell all that much HH compared to now.....

The jacket from 2010 and earlier ones I've had were made of lovely brown FQHH but the brown Aero I was sent this year was not a patch on it. I'm not at all sure it was standard FQHH though, I think they made the thing in chrome FQHH by mistake. I didn't send it back because of that though.

Do they still have the made in 1920's tanned type leather and colour loss is possible label? Anyone know?

 

[ButteMT61]

I want 10 minutes of my life back.
I just gnawed off the finish on my Shinki cuffs.

 

[FredS]

I discovered that drum dyeing is a more expensive process as it takes much longer this way to allow the dyes to soak right through the leather and the drums used cost a lot of money. So to me it seems that the hand dyeing Horweens use is a cost cutting method and not as good as drum dyed. Drum dyed leather is more colorfast and as the dye cannot wear through.

 

[Fanch]

Horween might not answer your inquiry quickly, or maybe not even at all. After all is said and done, your contract is between you and AL, not Horween.

 

[wdw]

I don't think I remember this sort of detailed query before. My simple understanding is that if you want to maintain the solidity of a colour you choose goat.

For horse and I think steer, the vast majority want to see colour contrast asap.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I discovered that drum dyeing is a more expensive process as it takes much longer this way to allow the dyes to soak right through the leather and the drums used cost a lot of money. So to me it seems that the hand dyeing Horweens use is a cost cutting method and not as good as drum dyed. Drum dyed leather is more colorfast and as the dye cannot wear through.

So get on the phone and quickly cancel your Alexander order. Ring up Lost Worlds for their indestructible dyed through black hide that shows no wear. Stu will be happy..and seems like you would be too.
HD

 

[FredS]

So get on the phone and quickly cancel your Alexander order. Ring up Lost Worlds for their indestructible dyed through black hide that shows no wear. Stu will be happy..and seems like you would be too.
HD

Ok Ok thanks thanks, thanks very much for your concern and your sincere advice. Much appreciated HoosierDaddy.

 

[FredS]

I have decided to just leave the order as it is...I am sure I will grow to love the special characteristics of that particular leather. You have to take chances sometimes in life. I hope most of you will understand my concerns though especially as I have saved up a long time for this jacket and I have never owned a jacket in this price range before. I am not in a position to splash money about and therefore I want to be as sure as possible that I will be happy with the jacket and not have regrets afterwards.
So what I have found out through extensive googling now is the following:

It's to save time and money.
they make most leathers with brown base because the natural color of leather is brown.
(brown is also the most popular color for top coating).
This way they can serve requests for a variety of shades of brown.
They take the already retanned brown hides which they keep in stock and finish them with whatever color (shade of brown) the customer wants.

While that's OK if the customer wants a brown color leather, it's not so good if the customer wants black, red, yellow, green etc.
These colors should be drum dyed the same color as the top coating.

 

[thor]

I agree with HD; the Lost Worlds horsehide is chrome tanned and drum dyed, fully pigmented and does not fade and the finish doesn't wear off. It's a different process from vegetable tanning/aniline finish leather. The LW hides look great once they wrinkle and crease over time, developing their own unique patina.

 

[Fanch]

The ultimate factor is IMO whether or not the jacket fits properly rather than some esoteric quality of the leather. Be sure to post pictures and your impressions after receiving your jacket and hope that it meets your expectations. We wish you well.

 

[Cyber Lip]

I was sorta under the impression that they dyed this way as it's more vintage accurate, and will age the same way vintage jackets have. No?

 

[FredS]

I was sorta under the impression that they dyed this way as it's more vintage accurate, and will age the same way vintage jackets have. No?

I thought so too but the answer is no. It's to save time and money. Proper way would be to drum dye in black for a finished black end product for black jackets.
They make most leathers with brown base because the natural color of leather is brown.
(brown is also the most popular color for top coating).
This way they can serve requests for a variety of shades of brown.
They take the already retanned brown hides which they keep in stock and finish them with whatever color (shade of brown) the customer wants.

While that's OK if the customer wants a brown color leather, it's not so good if the customer wants black, red, yellow, green etc.
These colors should be drum dyed the same color as the top coating.
See here the whole process and look at the photo's.
http://horween.com/101/chromexcel-2/

 

[Sloan1874]

I want 10 minutes of my life back.
I just gnawed off the finish on my Shinki cuffs.

You aiming for that mythical Shinki 'tea colour' finish, Butte? Actually, now there's a hide that doesn't change colour easily. Lots of graining and marbling, but no lightening or change.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I thought so too but the answer is no. It's to save time and money. Proper way would be to drum dye in black for a finished black end product for black jackets.
They make most leathers with brown base because the natural color of leather is brown.
(brown is also the most popular color for top coating).
This way they can serve requests for a variety of shades of brown.
They take the already retanned brown hides which they keep in stock and finish them with whatever color (shade of brown) the customer wants.

While that's OK if the customer wants a brown color leather, it's not so good if the customer wants black, red, yellow, green etc.
These colors should be drum dyed the same color as the top coating.
See here the whole process and look at the photo's.
http://horween.com/101/chromexcel-2/

You deem it only OK for brown..and not so good for black. So it's difficult to understand why you would go ahead and purchase such an item. How could you then be happy with it after six or so pages leading you over and over to this conclusion? [huh]
HD

 

[Fanch]

Butte-san and Sloan-san, maybe your Shenki jackets are not true Japanese goatskin but really shenki-storse. ound:

 

[Rudie]

andyfalzon from Bill Kelso shared this link http://www.saddlebackleather.com/Leather-101 which I think will answer some of your questions. From your description I would think the leather is drum dyed in brown and then top coated with black. This might result in a different look than the one you are after, but it is not a quality issue.

 

[ButteMT61]

You aiming for that mythical Shinki 'tea colour' finish, Scott? Actually, now there's a hide that doesn't change colour easily. Lots of graining and marbling, but no lightening or change.

It's mocha java latté. And it's not wearing in color at all, just getting great grain, wrinkles, etc. Now, if you SCRATCH it, it will indeed be lighter underneath the top layer. Shocking, I know.
If I scratch the FQHH Aero - a totally different leather - it will not change like this finish does. Different finishes have different aging characteristics. I happen to like them all.
I don't even like a new jacket so much except for the smell and shine of the finish.
But I agree with HD - shoulda done the research before offering a new jacket.

 

[FredS]

andyfalzon from Bill Kelso shared this link http://www.saddlebackleather.com/Leather-101 which I think will answer some of your questions. From your description I would think the leather is drum dyed in brown and then top coated with black. This might result in a different look than the one you are after, but it is not a quality issue.

Indeed it's what I also said. The skins are drum dyed in brown and then top coated with black. But they don't drum dye in black because there is more demand for brown and it would cost too much extra time and money to drum dye in black. A drum costs around $100,000 so getting an extra drum just for dyeing in black would be too costly as would be the process of changing over from a brown dye to a black dye for drum dyeing a batch of skins. So they take the brown drum dyed skins and some of them get a top coat of dye in black. No problem with the brown top coated skins as the base is brown also but with the black topcoat the base is brown so eventually the brown will start showing through the black topcoat. Maybe not a quality issue as far as the quality of the leather is concerned and not even a quality issue if you like the effect that the brown showing through the black creates but it is a quality issue if you want your jacket to remain black. In any case I am adapting myself to the idea that the brown showing through the black might be a desirable effect. Maybe I have been too fixated on having a totally and permanently all black jacket.