Himel website updated

[JMax]

Earlier in this thread, some people took exception with Himel’s reference to “One Good Thing” and associated claims of producing “the finest” jackets. Curious if other brands employ similar marketing approaches, I quickly surveyed a few other websites.

Aero’s website includes the following references:
* “manufacturers of the best and the toughest leather jackets on the planet”
* “the very best”
* “World famous”
* “the finest suede ever produced”

Lost World’s website includes the following references:
* “the best clothing of its kind in the world”
* “markedly better than anything in the current marketplace”
* “mind-blowing craftsmanship”
* “Who needs the best comes to us”
* “World Famous Craftsmanship”

Vanson’s website includes the following references:
* “superior real-world quality and design”
* “the best raw materials”
* “heirloom quality garments” (I like this slogan)

Good Wear’s website is more humble, with an emphasis on fit and authenticity, and little or no “we are the best” proclamations. Kudos JC.

Himel's "One Good Thing" slogan is arguably a bit pretentious, but other manufacturers employ equally self-aggrandizing slogans as part of their marketing campaigns.

Surprised the LW list is so short...

 

[Seb Lucas]

$2500 is affordable to most people and isn't insane for a jacket that only gets better with age and that you'll potentially wear for the next 20 years and beyond. Some of you are acting as if it's a pie in the sky outrageously unobtainable amount of money LOL. When you think about the accumulated amount the average person spends over time on jackets that need replacing every couple of years because they either wear out or go out of style. $2500 isn't a bad investment.

Nice try. I own an M65 that cost me $40 and I have worn it most winters for 23 years. Pricing and value are much more complex. I won't pay current Aero prices, let alone Himel or Goodwear. I am financially comfortable but I am thrifty. Most men I know are the same. We forget that this hobby, while not as expensive as collecting watches or cars, is a boutique interest. Many people in the broader community would think paying $200 for a casual jacket is big money let alone over $2000.

 

[nick123]

If i take a look at the Himel offerings, and this goes for any brand, I just say “that is the listed price, who am I to interject speculation into what goes into the said price?” It’s unlikely prices will be lowered due to my internet protest. I try to take the maker at his word. Especiially when David has explained himself before in interviews or postings here. My problem is as soon as I have $1000 or so to spend, I don’t have the patience to wait to save more so it’s off to the races and I’ll usually end up splurging with Thurston or others.

No objection to complaining about prices. It sucks. They are going up and up. But the maker’s price is the maker’s price. I am not replying to anyone specifically, just my own temptation to dissect a price point and ask “why?”. It’s not outside of the realm of human nature to want to ask those questions.

As far as I know, the only people who need a reality check on pricing is that crazy Japanese ebay seller who has like a million really nice original and repro military flight jackets listed for like $3-5k.

 

[Fanch]

Awhile back I bought the following garment from John Chapman and boy oh boy did I get a great deal or what? One of the most useful jackets I own and worth every penny I paid!

Californian Ventura, made by Himel Bros.
Price: $1,549.00 (new condition)
Leather: Shinki dark seal brown front quarter horsehide
Lining: cotton drill in light khaki shade, with black sleeves
Zipper: reproduction M-42 Talon
Size: 44


This is the picture of John wearing the GW/Himel that I uploaded rather than a picture of my wearing it as John is far more handsome than I am the best day I ever had. I consider this to be heirloom quality, at least to me. As one might discern, I have no issue whatsoever for anyone paying over $2K for one of Himel's jackets.

 

[jeo]

If i take a look at the Himel offerings, and this goes for any brand, I just say “that is the listed price, who am I to interject speculation into what goes into the said price?” It’s unlikely prices will be lowered due to my internet protest. I try to take the maker at his word. Especiially when David has explained himself before in interviews or postings here. My problem is as soon as I have $1000 or so to spend, I don’t have the patience to wait to save more so it’s off to the races and I’ll usually end up splurging with Thurston or others.

No objection to complaining about prices. It sucks. They are going up and up. But the maker’s price is the maker’s price. I am not replying to anyone specifically, just my own temptation to dissect a price point and ask “why?”. It’s not outside of the realm of human nature to want to ask those questions.

As far as I know, the only people who need a reality check on pricing is that crazy Japanese ebay seller who has like a million really nice original and repro military flight jackets listed for like $3-5k.

^ agree completely

Very interesting topic of debate.

I just want to say that I’m happy about the fact that we as leather jacket junkies have options. There is something for everyone. I hope that more jacket makers come out and give us more options.

From my experience the market always dictates value. If he can sell em at this price, that’s what they’re worth. If he can’t, the market will correct itself. I have no issue with Himel jacket prices. Once it becomes like those high fashion brands where you’re paying for the brand and not the product itself, is when I’ll have an issue. I don’t think that’s the case with Himel jackets.

I recently paid over $1500 for a real mccoys jacket. Here’s why. I’m 5’4” and skinny. It’s HARD to find something that fits me well and the Japanese stuff is just made for people like me. Like I said, there’s something for everyone. I’ve been searching for that perfectly fitting leather jacket forever. Bought and sold countless jackets. Ordered 3 brand new “bespoke” jackets (of which I’ve only kept one) and after all that I have 4 “keepers” at the moment. Of those only one is an absolute perfect fit for me. The others fit me pretty good. So to get that perfect fit I am willing to pay those kind of prices. Of course, not everyone is in the same boat as me.

To get back to the topic of the thread..I scoured the new Himel website. No “contact us” page and not once through the entire site is there an email address or phone number. I don’t like that.




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[ton312]

I think once you decide to pay over $100 for an article of clothing you breached all sensibility...and begin posting in the outerwear section of TFL.
I've paid much, much less for incredible jackets. And yet... Here I am. I will say the notion is fading though. I suspect soon I will return to trolling for vintage/used bargains and start saving $$. Even when handed my dream jacket, I sold it. Only to start the process over again. That might well be the definition of insanity, repeating the same action and expecting a different result.

Depreciation on these jackets is staggering. Especially if you are outside the norm in physical stature...but even if you arent, it's pretty rough.

 

[Guppy]

I think this conversation is pretty well played out at this point, and has been for some time.

There's three threads to this conversation:

1. the merits of Himel jackets, Himel pricing, and so on
2. the rationale of pricing and theories of value
3. how the participants in the discussion regard each other and how that makes them feel.

As time goes on, 3 seems to be gradually drowning out 1 and 2.

Both 1 and 2 are really tangential to discussion of the new Himelbros.com website. I'm almost sorry I pointed out that it had been updated.

It'd be great if we could all return to a neutral corner and agree to be gentlemen and respect one another and our rights to our opinions and tastes.

 

[Sloan1874]

One of the things that I find difficult to get over with Himel and the Japanese makers is that the lack of customisation. Aero, GW, LW, even BK, all offer opportunities to adjust at the very least sleeve and body length, all the way up to colour, lining, metalwork, and actual design details, at a considerably lower price.

 

[ton312]

I think this conversation is pretty well played out at this point, and has been for some time.

There's three threads to this conversation:

1. the merits of Himel jackets, Himel pricing, and so on
2. the rationale of pricing and theories of value
3. how the participants in the discussion regard each other and how that makes them feel.

As time goes on, 3 seems to be gradually drowning out 1 and 2.

Both 1 and 2 are really tangential to discussion of the new Himelbros.com website. I'm almost sorry I pointed out that it had been updated.

It'd be great if we could all return to a neutral corner and agree to be gentlemen and respect one another and our rights to our opinions and tastes.

I agree. One question for the group, not meant to fan flames but I'm curious as the term seems to get people's feathers ruffled. What the Hell is a hipster anyway?!? Am I one? Should I be? Should I work not to be and in so doing does that make me more of one? I legitimately don't know.

 

[Carlos840]

One of the things that I find difficult to get over with Himel and the Japanese makers is that the lack of customisation. Aero, GW, LW, even BK, all offer opportunities to adjust at the very least sleeve and body length, all the way up to colour, lining, metalwork, and actual design details, at a considerably lower price.

Himel offers more sizing customisation than Aero and i could chose the lining, the stitching, the belt, the buckle etc of my jacket...
What makes you think he offers less customisation than the brands you mentioned?

 

[Sloan1874]

My impression has always been that Himel was much more of off-the-peg concern than made-to-measure, so I stand corrected. That said, the prices have always way beyond my means and as has been pointed out several times here, there is a price-level for most pockets out there, whether it's new or used, and a range of designs within each band that will satisfy most tastes.
I think this thread has actually been pretty much run into the ground, tbh. Those who enjoy lashing money on a $2,500 jacket will not be persuaded to do otherwise by those who can't or won't, and vice versa. If anything, though, it's highlighted the escalating prices within the hobby/niche at all levels. As I said, it's definitely becoming a rich man's game and I think it's right for people to raise concerns about the direction of travel.

 

[technovox]

I’m rather enthralled with the idea that I could be among the “cognoscenti who want a high-end, cultural artifact with up market hipster overtones." But then again, I bought my Himel Kensington off of ebay, so I suppose that instantly disqualifies me.

 

[zebedee]

I'm curious about why a Himel is much more expensive than the other brands we buy. As I cannot claim to be an expert in the construction of jackets, I'd have to go on whatever makers claim about their products and subjective accounts. I'd feel like a muppet if I spent that much on something like a jacket, but that's just me (Aero's premier range to me also approaches mini-muppetry; I already have too many Aeros and will get rid of half when back in the UK and do not intend to buy any further jackets). I don't think that 'most rational actors' not doing a thing implies that anyone who does is irrational ('most' being important in the phrasing) unless we want to imply that the public outside of the jacket-buying community is partly or wholly incapable of reason. The Himel Canuck looks outstanding and I'm sure it's well made and expertly yada yada yada, so let he who has the money spend it freely.

I did like Himel's little video on the site and found it very honest. That's what I form as an impression of the brand. I look at LW site and start laughing at the unintentional camp (and have in fact used it to teach theories of camp humour in undergraduate and high school classes) and I quite like the designs. Himel does not seem to be directed at or away from hipsters. Or blog queens.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I’m rather enthralled with the idea that I could be among the “cognoscenti who want a high-end, cultural artifact with up market hipster overtones." But then again, I bought my Himel Kensington off of ebay, so I suppose that instantly disqualifies me.

No, you're not off the hook Techno. When I wrote that I didn't think it was rude. You'll also note I said 'hipster overtones' which I think is still right. Didn't mean to call anyone a hipster. Now the thing is. I'm pretty much an aging hipster, right down to my goatee and fedora. I like creative non-mainstream solutions to life's problems, I look for authenticiy. I eat organic quinoa. Sue me.

I think the quest for artisan made products, from carefully selected materials, with a retro stylings is a classic hipster thing. There's a reason Thurston Bros is in Seattle, Bro. But it doesn't mean that everyone who appreciates authenticiy in leather is a hipster wannabe.

When this site started (and before) many of us got into jackets around thrift shops and markets where we bought cool old clothes from the golden era. We liked old suits and leathers and hats and they used to be pretty cheap. Much of this site was built on people finding style and an original look for very little money. It took effort and creative thinking rather than money to achieve.

It's this early impulse that also informs my avoidance of high priced reproductions. I just find it hard to imagine paying more than my first car cost for a jacket that should (if you look carefully) be available for around $45.

 

[Gav]

Why dont you guys take your fight to private messages now?

There are pages of both your posts essentially just reiterating the same points over and over and now degrading into insults and accusations.

Neither of you are going to win the argument, you have opposing views.

 

[Guppy]

When this site started (and before) many of us got into jackets around thrift shops and markets where we bought cool old clothes from the golden era. We liked old suits and leathers and hats and they used to be pretty cheap. Much of this site was built on people finding style and an original look for very little money. It took effort and creative thinking rather than money to achieve.

The "before it was cool" argument is CLASSIC hipster.

Do hipsters call themselves hipsters, and discuss what it means to be a hipster? I thought it was an outsider term.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I just don't get all of this back and forth. The Himel website looks OK. Probably better than I remember from years ago. However, as I stated earlier, I am not interested in the site as I have no interest in what some insist are the finer points of these leather jackets so I certainly wouldn't pay those higher prices. I've looked for a certain type of leather jacket that differs in the kind of hide used by Himel...'which I prefer'. As long as a leather Jacket looks kind of rustically good and fits well..I'm in. I don't want wonkie or loose stitching as some mass produced jacket companies often put out since I am paying for a better custom jacket but actually I have never gotten one like that.

I think that many Himel jackets look exceptionally well when folks here post fit photos, however some other custom jackets look just as nice IMO. Guess I just don't get how a Himel is worth a thousand plus more dollars than some other brands. Perhaps a Himel customer will explain the specific differences that these jackets offer that I just haven't noticed.

It simply boils down to what you prefer doesn't it?

HD

 

[Carlos840]

On the one hand, Carlos and Moniter, you're basically saying people have preferences.

Most of us fully get that.

The *real* question is, what are the specifics of a Himel, for example, that make you feel the asking price is worth it?

You like the product. We get it. You think it's worth the asking price. We get it. But what are the specific features of the product itself that actually make you feel it's worth it versus an Aero or any other product with similar offerings for much less?

And when I ask, Carlos, I'm not trying to belittle your choice here, I'm just genuinely interested in your opinion. You decided the product was worth your hard earned money. You have choices and you made Himel your choice. I'm asking, why? Is that okay to ask? And the same goes double for other Himel owners.

If Aero made a Chevalier i would happily order one and save myself some money!
As it stands, only Himel makes a Chevalier, so the only way i could get one was to order one from him.
Seems pretty logical to me...

Umm, I can see that there is some logic here, but then again....if you read this article from 2014, they were selling their jackets at a region of $1500 (compared to some $2500 Japanese jackets with the exchange rate at the time). Now that we are in 2018, we need to pay an extra 1k for the same products, that is a 66.6666% increase in 4yrs time.

Is Goodwear $750 better than an standard Aero? I would say yes. Goodwear A2s are regarded as the most faithful A-2 reproductions ever, and it is always custom made by one man. John Chapman increased his charges a few years back from round 1k per jacket to the current price to slow down his orders, and we should really admire his business model as a one man operation. The difference between the business models of Himel and the other two is that, the later two still keep the same customer base while Himel has basically gone up a tier.

In 2014 he sold them for $1500.
Maybe he couldn't carry on selling them at that price because he couldn't keep up with orders, and rather to pull a John Chapman and get people to wait for 4 years he increased his prices to get less orders. Because of this you can still order a Himel and not wait years.
In my opinion John should raise his prices as he is clearly incapable of keeping up with demand.

Supply and demand!

 

[HoosierDaddy]

"well I like high stitch count, and shinki, and more detailed finish and the design"

I figured that was it...but why in the world did it take all this asking and coaxing to get a direct answer as to why you pay $1000 plus for a Himel..?

Are Himel buyers really this touchy?

 

[zebedee]

Accidental collateral butthurt is everywhere.

I don't think anyone was even insulted, originally. Some people, for whatever reason, will happily pay more than others for things which seem similar but may not be to them.