Help! Quick opinion on Kreosote boots.

[bigmanbigtruck]

lol nobody is saying he’s gonna be the next Madoff.

But one can easily imagine a situation where he keeps collecting the payments upfront to pay for expenses and keep the lights on in order to pursue his dream. Eventually these “deposits” will dry up and he’ll be forced to call it quits.

Meanwhile you’re out 2 grand and a pair of boots.

 

[Aloysius]

lol nobody is saying he’s gonna be the next Madoff.

But one can easily imagine a situation where he keeps collecting the payments upfront to pay for expenses and keep the lights on in order to pursue his dream. Eventually these “deposits” will dry up and he’ll be forced to call it quits.

Meanwhile you’re out of 2 grand and a pair of boots.

* 3 grand lol

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

* 3 grand lol

Nevermind, he’s gonna be the next Madoff then

 

[vividIT]

lol nobody is saying he’s gonna be the next Madoff.

But one can easily imagine a situation where he keeps collecting the payments upfront to pay for expenses and keep the lights on in order to pursue his dream. Eventually these “deposits” will dry up and he’ll be forced to call it quits.

Meanwhile you’re out of 2 grand and a pair of boots.

Yeah, from being on his list for boot builds, something is definitely up. Shouldn't take this long. Even Carl said in his write-ups, who knows how long he'll continue to build boots and would agree, what happens then.

I'm not an attorney nor do I know Missouri law (where he's located), but from researching Missouri's laws, they have an MMPA (Missouri Merchandising Practices Act) in place. If I'm reading correctly, someone can file a complaint to the Attorney General's office and they would look into his business and for mediation if he's not giving refunds while violating the MMPA.

Based on his email schedule it shows 16 boots being built in a 17 month period, while promoting 30-35 builds on his website, on top of sending delays year after year to receive a product.

Missouri Merchandising Practices Act (MMPA) protects consumers from unfair business practices, including delays in product refunds:

407.020. Unlawful practices, penalty — exceptions. — 1. The act, use or employment by any person of any deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, suppression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisement of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in section 407.453, in or from the state of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice.

 

[Aloysius]

Yeah, from being on his list for boot builds, something is definitely up. Shouldn't take this long. Even Carl said in his write-ups, who knows how long he'll continue to build boots and would agree, what happens then.

I'm not an attorney nor do I know Missouri law (where he's located), but from researching Missouri's laws, they have an MMPA (Missouri Merchandising Practices Act) in place. If I'm reading correctly, someone can file a complaint to the Attorney General's office and they would look into his business and for mediation if he's not giving refunds while violating the MMPA.

If he's only building 16 boots per year or per 17 months as he did in 2024, while promoting 30-35 builds on his website, on top of making false promises year after year to receive a product. I feel like he would be cutting it close to violating that. We can easy say he has a bad business model right now.

Missouri Merchandising Practices Act (MMPA) protects consumers from unfair business practices, including delays in product refunds:

407.020. Unlawful practices, penalty — exceptions. — 1. The act, use or employment by any person of any deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, suppression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisement of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in section 407.453, in or from the state of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice.

I think you should take this step. It’s not exactly great when people use our fondness for small businesses as a cover to kind of blow off the customer.

 

[Tom71]

Yeah, from being on his list for boot builds, something is definitely up. Shouldn't take this long. Even Carl said in his write-ups, who knows how long he'll continue to build boots and would agree, what happens then.

I'm not an attorney nor do I know Missouri law (where he's located), but from researching Missouri's laws, they have an MMPA (Missouri Merchandising Practices Act) in place. If I'm reading correctly, someone can file a complaint to the Attorney General's office and they would look into his business and for mediation if he's not giving refunds while violating the MMPA.

If he's only building 16 boots per year or per 17 months as he did in 2024, while promoting 30-35 builds on his website, on top of making false promises year after year to receive a product. I feel like he would be cutting it close to violating that. We can easy say he has a bad business model right now.

Missouri Merchandising Practices Act (MMPA) protects consumers from unfair business practices, including delays in product refunds:

407.020. Unlawful practices, penalty — exceptions. — 1. The act, use or employment by any person of any deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, suppression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisement of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in section 407.453, in or from the state of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice.

Please don´t.

Making a complaint to a consumer protection body doesn´t get your money back. If things start to unravel you want to be gone before the tsunami hits the coast.

Send him a formal notice, demanding your money back; follow up with a lawyer that works on a "cost of the action" basis or even succes based (I am sure, you know somebody who knows somebody...). Get you money back before everybody else tries.

 

[Brandrea33]

At the time, I liked his style as well and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Back in 2020, 1 year was tough to fathom at the time. It obviously is turning out very poorly. It gets worse......

I have an email from him dated 10/2023 that 16 builds were ahead of mine. We can do the math. Should be June or July if he is doing 2 - 2.5 builds per year if he builds 30-35/yr (per his website). Just received a new update last week (November), after checking in with him that my new schedule is 3/2025. That's 16 builds for 17 months!!! These are for 2020 purchases. He's NOT even building 30/yr or even 35/yr per his website.

Wow … not good indeed.

My conversation happened in 2022 and at that time I believe he had a 18 mo - 2 year wait. I just couldn’t get my head around paying upfront and waiting that long.

Im happy with my Vibergs.

EDIT: I agree with @Tom71 … ask for your money back. If nothing else, it may move you next up in the production cue lol

 

[Tom71]

I will say that I always liked the look of the "Nail Shank" Boot. At one point, I was close to getting on the wait list, but then life happened and I had other concerns. Some things work out just by doing nothing...

 

[ABCD]

Not going to happen. Himel and quite a few others tried to pull this off, too and it didn't happen.

There is no brand image.

He's still trying though.

 

[jonbuilder]

these will look goofy with a suit

42 months is insane. think about your taste 4 years ago...do you want the same things now?

The wait is now 54 months.

 

[jonbuilder]

One can not order Kreosote boots directly from his website. You request an appointment to discuss the order with the man after you have summited the foot measurements from the instruction on his website. Taking 100% deposit in effect lowers the his order count and eliminates tire kickers time wasters. I believe his website states once you place an order there are no refunds. I know baker Shoes has a similar policy; 100% deposit and no refunds once the order is accept by White's

 

[Bfd70]

Can’t imagine he’s getting any new orders. If so, caveat emptor right ?

 

[jonbuilder]

Interesting boots. I like the look of them. They would pair well with a suit - but only the *right* suit. Specifically, something in a late teens / into the early 20s style (think: first couple of series of Peaky Blinders). Very common back then for working men to wear boots like these with a suit. (Not least because it would have been their only footwear at any one time - and likely their only 'good' suit too.) In a pinch, these would work well with something like one of the Darcy Clothing 'workwear' suits.

In leather terms, if you ever want to wear them in a 'dressier' style, then I would suggest plain black. I'm not a particular fan of teacore (it always felt to me like trying to rush-replicate the look of a jacket or a pair of boots that had been hard-abused for decades, rather than something more period-realistic - ymmv) anyhow, but as a practical matter, a pair of plain black boots will be much easier to match into a smarter outfit than something that mixes black and brown. Looked after ( polished regularly in particular), there's no reason these couldn't stay tidy looking for a long time, as opposed to fashionably abused.

As to wait time, much like price, only you can decide whether they are worth it to you. I can't imagine paying up front and waiting that long for almost anything shy of the kind of house I'll never be able to afford in the locations I'd want it. Plenty of other folks wait a long time for things they passionately would love to have, and for which there is no substitute. Some folks have waited as long for a Goodwear A2, others up to eight years at one time for a new Morgan sportscar. I have a friend who is now many years in to a long wait to be able to become a member at Lords cricket ground. Only you can know if you'll still want it by that point. That's the aspect that wouldn't give me any pause for concern: my own clothing tastes are now in the main decades old, particularly footwear.

The one thing I would be wary of - if I've picked this up correctly - is that kind of wait after paying out the full cost upfront. It's a long time pre-production to be out that amount. I'd at least want to be clear before deciding anything on that score what the cancellation policy was, and the extent of any non-returnable deposit element of the price.

If I read his current website correctly, there is no cancellation and no refunds. You order a pair of boots assume you are in until delivery. Same policy as Baker Shoes White's Boots

 

[El Marro]

If I read his current website correctly, there is no cancellation and no refunds. You order a pair of boots assume you are in until delivery. Same policy as Baker Shoes White's Boots

Yes but Bakers is a reputable vendor that delivers their boots as promised on time. Based on recent postings here Kreosote is more of a crap shoot.

 

[navetsea]

one man show is just that, please don't ruin this guy's life, it's in your benefit to make this guy life long and inspired until the day your boots is ready. take it as a one and done, never again approach, but as long as you haven't gotten your boots be nice to him. few years ago I had an experience with custom boots with local vendor, it should be just a month that turned into 3 months and from the photo he sent me , I saw serious flaw, so they needed to be remade, the brand owner then subcontract my boots into another company as he closed his brand and change business direction, it got into silent and hard to reach, because I already paid in full, but I kept trying politely message them, and offer to add some money to make it happen, so I added money and finally I received my custom boots after 1 and half years in limbo, afterall we are all human with feeling, if we nice to someone, normal human then feel the obligation to turn the favor, there would be asshole and scammers in the mix, but most artisans are NOT, they tend to have feeling and a lot of ego that's why they do their trade.

 

[Edward]

In all seriousness, how do these people sleep at night? Knowing I absolutely have to be making shoes (or whatever) for the next 10 years, would've sent me to an early grave.

Horses for courses, I suppose. There's a side to me now I'm really too old that regrets not having tried to make a go of it as an actor when I was young, but the bottom line was that job security, being able to afford to eat and a roof over my head, mattered. It's true a lot of people would feel penned in by a commitment to the next ten years liked that; others would see it as a measured of job security. Of course it's not quite the same thing as me working to a contract that, yes, runs until 2039 but I could get out ofc at three months notice without any problem if that's what I wanted. However, it probably feels a lot safer for the maker than heading out with a premade stock week to week hoping to find buyers for a stock product.

All the things that can go wrong with a one man band. Sick, sick family, depressed, divorced, machine issues…etc. I can’t understand how they are comfortable taking money upfront for a service 6+ months out. If they are using deposits for daily expenses including their own salary they’ll never get out of the hole.

It's a difficult business to get into. I've seen it many times. Start up costs are big, and if you want to produce a custom, artisanal product that takes time but you still need to eat, you end up with this sort of rolling operation. It's not unlike the sort of pension scheme where those currently working and paying in are helping to pay out on the pensions currently being issued, and the next generation will pay theirs. A lot of folks who are very gifted craftspeople struggle with managing the workflow just right to balance income against output. I've known people working crazy hours to keep new businesses like this afloat, desperately needing help to get to the next stage, but not able to afford to pay someone minimum wage to stick on labels, or they discover that what they can realistically charge for the product doesn't pay them at all well for their own time in manufacturing. Raising costs significantly can help keep the flow of orders to a number the maker can cope with, but that can bring with it enhanced expectations from the market without changing the nature of the business itself.

Time to form a TFL union. If a member is legitimately mistreated by a maker everyone else refuses to order from them and calls them clown penis on their social media

As a lawyer I should also point out that anyone here minded to do so should avoid use of the TFL brand, as well as be mindful of laws surround defamation, privacy and doxxing.

Random thoughts: I think he's building a brand image. He charges $2,500 per pair upfront. Ignoring for a moment the fact that he gets to use this money for 4+ years (an index fund should get him 10%/year), after materials and overhead costs let's assume he clears $1,250. At 70 hours of labor per pair, that averages to about $18/hour. Not exactly where you want to be. But if he builds a great brand image of artisanal quality, collabs on other verticals will bring better returns with smaller demand on his time. And eventually he will have to hire a couple of guys from White's to knock out the boot backlog if the heat gets to be too much. These small businesses walk a fine line.

That is the difficulty. It takes a lot to get from the position of being able to balance enough work to pay your own time, to get to the stage of being able to afford to take on other employees. It's very hard to start anything new these days without the injection of serious capital to begin with. A few years ago a friend had to decline a small business grant start-up scheme offered by government because it specified very clearly that provided funding for successful applicants could be used to establish the business only, and they would not be permitted to use it in any way to facilitate receiving a salary for the first two years. Fine if you can otherwise afford to eat. For a single person, that's hard.

I think it's an accidental Ponzi scheme rather than a planned one (much like the US social security system, in that way) but yeah the only way to stem the damage is for him to put it on hold until he catches up. Given that he has orders to make through next year, it shouldn't hold him back really.

An important distinction also. For legal reasons, folks absolutely need to be careful of these sorts of allegations. It's certainly true as a general matter that a lot of small businesses, as you note, can get in over their heads. I've seen it happen in another hobbyist community about twenty years ago. An individual got in over their head taking on too many orders. Quite innocently - reminiscent of that round on Master Chef where they do the restaurant service, and people who are incredible cooks just fall apart because they aren't used to managing business orders and the timing. A lot of angry contacts, legal threats, messy situation followed. A lot of ill feeling for a long time in a small community where everyone involved knew each other personally. In the end I believe it did get sorted out amicably, and the individual concerned rebuilt their business in a manner which worked going forward.

It's easy to forget, I think, that being creative and being great at making something doesn't necessarily mean being skilled at business. Steve Jobs never designed anything - certainly not the iPod - but he clearly knew how to sell it (and the resultant Halo effect took Apple from 10% of the market to the behemoth it is today). Jony Ive's team designed the iPod, but it wasn't them who sold it. But getting to the point where a small, new business can support both production and sales personnel? Hard. It's a catch 22. This is probably where a lot more could be available in training craftspeople how to manage the business side - not least when to recognise there is a market and get an idea of its size.

If I read his current website correctly, there is no cancellation and no refunds. You order a pair of boots assume you are in until delivery. Same policy as Baker Shoes White's Boots

That's quite extreme. I'm not sure that would stand up under consumer protection law in the UK and Europe, though even then, applying the law would be a hassle. It's something that would put me off personally, unless I could absolutely afford to be out the full cost for a long time and the business was a known and guaranteed quantity. Which again is a hard place to reach for small businesses.

 

[jonbuilder]

Springline, which makes the custom lasts for many British shoe companies, will make you a bespoke last for £378. Being generous (because this is a direct to consumer rate; businesses would pay less), let's call that £400–so a $500 cost to order a last… requires a $2500 deposit.

He is not ordering custom lasts for each build. He must have or will purchase a standard last for each size and customize for individual feet with strips of leather. I think Weco does this for $250. They than file the last for repeat boots for the client.

 

[jonbuilder]

After reading through the entire thread I had no intention of contacting Gabbard about a pair of boots. With customers here waiting 4+ years for a pair of boots when told they would have their boots in 12 to 18 months and refused a refund, I agree something is wrong.
I was thinking about a tread were a few members jumped on a bandwagon accusing John Chapman of operating a ponzi operation with no direct evidence. As it turned out, John gave everyone who requested their $200 deposit back. john is still making jackets that no one else makes for satisfied clients. The member who spearhead the ponzi theory, received his deposit back, and still was not satisfied. He believed he was owed interest. The monitors rightfully shut the thread down.
The truth is our Forum will have no major influence on stopping orders to Kreosote. I count just two members who came forward that they have pending orders with Kreosote. Gabbard business is not dependent on our forum.
But I for one, am glad I came upon this tread and turn away any thoughts of contacting Gabbard

 

[Brandrea33]

After reading through the entire thread I had no intention of contacting Gabbard about a pair of boots. With customers here waiting 4+ years for a pair of boots when told they would have their boots in 12 to 18 months and refused a refund, I agree something is wrong.
I was thinking about a tread were a few members jumped on a bandwagon accusing John Chapman of operating a ponzi operation with no direct evidence. As it turned out, John gave everyone who requested their $200 deposit back. john is still making jackets that no one else makes for satisfied clients. The member who spearhead the ponzi theory, received his deposit back, and still was not satisfied. He believed he was owed interest. The monitors rightfully shut the thread down.
The truth is our Forum will have no major influence on stopping orders to Kreosote. I count just two members who came forward that they have pending orders with Kreosote. Gabbard business is not dependent on our forum.
But I for one, am glad I came upon this tread and turn away any thoughts of contacting Gabbard

John is working on a jacket for me next. I’ve never had a problem, and I’m not a big spender. I guess customer experience varies from person to person.

 

[Aloysius]

There is no way this thing doesn't blow up. There are established means for a custom operation to operate sustainably; he not only does not follow these methods but takes pride in blowing them off. He could right the ship by taking these steps but incorrectly sees them as compromise.

(Typed this yesterday before Edward's message though I think it still holds.)

Horses for courses, I suppose. There's a side to me now I'm really too old that regrets not having tried to make a go of it as an actor when I was young, but the bottom line was that job security, being able to afford to eat and a roof over my head, mattered. It's true a lot of people would feel penned in by a commitment to the next ten years liked that; others would see it as a measured of job security.

This example is an interesting one because a a bespoke shirtmaker of whom red devil and I have recently become customers was a stand-up comic in London in the 60s then decided to train up as a shirtmaker as a more stable job. When you do it right, craft is sustainable. The issue is that this Gabbard character takes pride in not having apprentices and otherwise not using traditional practices, seeing them as compromise. It's particularly silly given that it's not like apprentices are doing the work for customers' orders! They're gathering materials and working on logistics while the master craftsman drafts things (ideally freehand). And once they learn the process they can strike out on their own.

My own regret is that I didn't find a way to apprentice with a tailor instead of going to university.

He is not ordering custom lasts for each build. He must have or will purchase a standard last for each size and customize for individual feet with strips of leather. I think Weco does this for $250. They than file the last for repeat boots for the client.

To me this is a bit damning. All of this emphasis on customisation and perfect fit but it's not even a custom last? Why on earth would someone go with him over Julian?

For that matter you can have Springline make you a bespoke last and then there are a fair few RTW companies in the UK that are willing to use your Springline last to make you shoes and boots!

John is working on a jacket for me next. I’ve never had a problem, and I’m not a big spender. I guess customer experience varies from person to person.

I really do owe him an email. We had a great hour long phone conversation a year ago when I wanted to buy one of the vintage coats on sale at his site and the man was a gem to speak with. I was going to follow up but have had the draft sitting half complete for a year.