German & Austrian Hutmachers

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Thank you, Stefan, for your memories!

 

[Steve1857]

Hi Matt. Steve, Stefan, and Panos have made same excellent replies to your VEB. As usual, Steve's website is invaluable.

The only thing I can add is to say mine is definitely fur. If there is any wool in it, it's minimal.

As can be seen in the attached photo, the liner is glued in and there's a wider than usual reinforcer label where the sweat bow stitching is. There maybe a signature there, but it's indecipherable.

A big thanks to Panos for this one. He threw it in the mix with a bunch of hats I bought from him earlier this year. Loungers always seem to go above and beyond

Hah, what a coincidence!
I had already wondered who this "Chris" is!
Thank you for responding so sympathetically,
especially since it is now already the second VEB Guben,
which "does not want to come to you"!
Was yours also from a wool-fur mixture?

 

[mayserwegener]

I'd have to dig it up to refresh my memory a bit, but as I recall it was likely a mix (not as refined as a pure fur felt).

Stefan, I took a look at Panos's hat (posted above) and it appears to be Wool or maybe a mix. I know later they made Fur Felt Soft Felts.

 

[mayserwegener]

I'd have to dig it up to refresh my memory a bit, but as I recall it was likely a mix (not as refined as a pure fur felt).

Stefan, I to

Hah - that's it! Thanks for showing: really nice hat in great condition, Stefan!
Interesting, that the liners of Panos's/Steve's and your's show different styles/names.
Is it a 100 % fur felt hat - like Steve said most of them were made of after WW II?
Because maybe I'm wrong with my assessment of wool-fur mix?

I took a look at Panos's hat (posted above) and it appears to be Wool or maybe a mix. I know later they made Fur Felt Soft Felts. I can't see the same detail with yours probably due to the darker color.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Thank you, Steve & Steve & Stefan:
I took a second (and third) look on the felt and here some (hopefully better) fotos.
I still think, it is a mix - theres some wool in and you can see single straight hair popping out.

 

[PanosChris]

Thank you, Steve & Steve & Stefan:
I took a second (and third) look on the felt and here some (hopefully better) fotos.
I still think, it is a mix - theres some wool in and you can see single straight hair popping out.

Agreed, and looks fantastic!

 

[steur]

Stefan, I to


I took a look at Panos's hat (posted above) and it appears to be Wool or maybe a mix. I know later they made Fur Felt Soft Felts. I can't see the same detail with yours probably due to the darker color.

I looked through my original pictures and made this crop.

I found the hat and it's still hard to tell. I tend to think it's a furfelt even though it's fairly heavy at 145 grams and the hand is not as refined as other furfelts I have. But truth be told it's better than I remembered and gave it credit for.

 

[mayserwegener]

I looked through my original pictures and made this crop.

View attachment 334739

I found the hat and it's still hard to tell. I tend to think it's a furfelt even though it's fairly heavy at 145 grams and the hand is not as refined as other furfelts I have. But truth be told it's better than I remembered and gave it credit for.

Stefan, Thank you for posting the additional photo. Highly possible it Fur Felt. It might also have casein in the mix. I don't have any production information from this time but I am sure they had to cut corners due the economic situation in East Germany.

Thank you, Steve & Steve & Stefan:
I took a second (and third) look on the felt and here some (hopefully better) fotos.
I still think, it is a mix - theres some wool in and you can see single straight hair popping out.

Matt, Thank you for the additional photos. It's possible there is some wool but the straight hairs could be guard hairs. The finish seems more coarse / rough than Stefan's hat. As I mentioned above their could also be an adjunct like casein in mix.

How does your Grandfather's VHG "Magnet" compare? It's designated as "Prima Haarhut" which usually means Fur Felt Hat.

https://germanaustrianhats.invision...e-hutwerke-guben/?do=findComment&comment=1895

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

The felt is rougher and heavier than most/all of my other soft fur felts, but it's other than my real woolies, too! The VHG Magnet is (in my memories, cause it's not here) a completely different thing: lighter, thinner and smoother like a 'normal' real fur felt - but I will check twice.

I have not much experiences with mixed felts, but I tend to say, Stefan's and my hat are the same model and made of fur felt, that contains either some wool or nearly 'all the hair' of a rabbit - not only the soft 'wool fiber' under the guard hair - or maybe both. So I think, Steve, you're right with the guard hair. When I gave the hat much steam to form it, these long hair popped out and I had the feeling the felt got stiffer. Is this caused by the casein? What's the use of this adjunction?

 

[mayserwegener]

The felt is rougher and heavier than most/all of my other soft fur felts, but it's other than my real woolies, too! The VHG Magnet is (in my memories, cause it's not here) a completely different thing: lighter, thinner and smoother like a 'normal' real fur felt - but I will check twice.

I have not much experiences with mixed felts, but I tend to say, Stefan's and my hat are the same model and made of fur felt, that contains either some wool or nearly 'all the hair' of a rabbit - not only the soft 'wool fiber' under the guard hair - or maybe both. So I think, Steve, you're right with the guard hair. When I gave the hat much steam to form it, I had the feeling the felt got stiffer. Is this caused by the casein? What's the use of this adjunction?

Matt, The only mention of mixing of Wool and Fur types I have come across are in late 1800s early 1900s Austrian and German Hat catalogs. I have not come across the mention in the German and Austrian production information I have in my possession. I am not sure if I would be able to detect such a Wool and Fur mix. As you mentioned it could be a lower grade of Fur Felt (I have a good amount of information on this topic). I think the application of steam might have activated the Felt stiffeners (shellac). I know that Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik S. J. Fraenkel Wien at the time the factory closed (1972) used 6 - 10 % Casein fiber.

Here is a microscopic image of Casein fiber.

 

[steur]

Here's a new find. Shopping through vintage shops is usually the way I find hats, but with the restrictions only partially lifted you can find yourself standing in line for a long time waiting to get in. Not for me. Two shops were without line and I managed to find this hat in one of them.
Wegener Extra in green (in my defense: I thought it was grey when I bought it). Size 59 with the bound brim at 6,5cm and the crown at 10,5 cm at the center dent. Lovely thin felt with a nice hand to it. Quite light at only 102 grams. Except for the small size label no other label inside the hat. Liner is still stitched in, so likely early to mid-fifties.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

It's a nice one even though it's green, Stefan!

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Matt, The only mention of mixing of Wool and Fur types I have come across are in late 1800s early 1900s Austrian and German Hat catalogs. I have not come across the mention in the German and Austrian production information I have in my possession. I am not sure if I would be able to detect such a Wool and Fur mix. As you mentioned it could be a lower grade of Fur Felt (I have a good amount of information on this topic). I think the application of steam might have activated the Felt stiffeners (shellac). I know that Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik S. J. Fraenkel Wien at the time the factory closed (1972) used 6 - 10 % Casein fiber.

Here is a microscopic image of Casein fiber.

Thank you, Steve. So now I got it: first thought of an addition of liquid Casein as a stiffener - like the shellac you're certainly right with! But never heard of synthetic Casein fiber! Great info, Steve!

 

[steur]

It's a nice one even though it's green, Stefan!

Thanks, Matt. The earlier Wegener hats are top quality hats, but you usually find the more modern ones, which aren't as good.

 

[mayserwegener]

Thank you, Steve. So now I got it: first thought of an addition of liquid Casein as a stiffener - like the shellac you're certainly right with! But never heard of synthetic Casein fiber! Great info, Steve!

Matt, My guess is Casein fiber or synthetic fiber was used more than people here think. I have records of the last production processes for Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik and time and cost were a major focus (which in the end forced them out of business). This is the type of information that is missing from the historical record.

Quality Meteor, Casual Men's Smooth Finish Hat (1972, prior to close of Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik, + translation issues)

 

[mayserwegener]

Austrian Master Hat Maker Examination Regulations, Version as of June 30, 1997

https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeF...Gesetzesnummer=10006799&FassungVom=1997-06-30

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

To confirm Stefan's opinion about the early Wegener hats: here's a top one!
Beige-grey ("leer PN" - City Leer?) Wegener "Seal": 56 with a 10 cm crown (centre dent)
and a 5.5 cm brim with double stitching. The suede-like felt finish is simply fantastic
(but Stefan and Steve know that felt better): The hat is the lightest fur felt specimen
I've ever had in my hands - unfortunately I don't have a scale here to weigh it.
The hat is in fantastic NOS condition - even the externe paper size tag is still there,
on which the price is handwritten: 19.40 D-Mark I think. The stretchy wind cord
is made of rubber (I think) and wrapped in ribbon colour - it is still flexible!
The lining is still sewn in - so early/mid 50s, you say.

The hat is a discovery of Panos and was on his wish list: Congratulations on this fantastic hat!

in sunlight

 

[steur]

To confirm Stefan's opinion about the early Wegener hats: here's a top one!
Beige-grey ("leer PN" - City Leer?) Wegener "Seal": 56 with a 10 cm crown (centre dent)
and a 5.5 cm brim with double stitching. The suede-like felt finish is simply fantastic
(but Stefan and Steve know that felt better): The hat is the lightest fur felt specimen
I've ever had in my hands - unfortunately I don't have a scale here to weigh it.
The hat is in fantastic NOS condition - even the externe paper size tag is still there,
on which the price is handwritten: 19.40 D-Mark I think. The stretchy wind cord
is made of rubber (I think) and wrapped in ribbon colour - it is still flexible!
The lining is still sewn in - so early/mid 50s, you say.

The hat is a discovery of Panos and was on his wish list: Congratulations on this fantastic hat!

in sunlight

Fabulous hat, Matt. Great find in that condition.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Thanks, Stefan, but: The honour of finding this treasure goes to Panos!
The most I can do is pin the medal on my chest for initially saving it here.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Nice catch. Can't beat it for the money! I think it looked like this one.
View attachment 334379 View attachment 334380 View attachment 334381 View attachment 334382 View attachment 334383

As an adition:
The lost liner in my VHG was also stitched in like in
Stefan's and not glued in - found the rest of the threads.
By the way:
The "Luxus" crest on the lining ist the crest of the City of Guben.