Formal Wear Primer

[Tomasso]

Who makes Chas's suits these days? Can't seem to fit a collar for some reason

T&A. I've read that he also wears hand me downs from his grandfather and uncle, re-cut of course.

 

[Jovan]

I'm inclined to agree with Thomas, especially given the fitting problem with his shoulders. Unfortunate.

 

[iammatt]

I'm inclined to agree with Thomas, especially given the fitting problem with his shoulders. Unfortunate.

Fitting a collar correctly is very difficult and you rarely see it done well. If you look at all of the "what are you wearing" threads on the different boards, you rarely see a good collar.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

what are the main features one would look for in a well fitted collar? Obviously the pulling away from the neckline is a bad thing - see Chas's suit above.

What else, specifically? I've always wondered, since most collars look fine to me, but i hear people say they don't look right.

bk

 

[Orgetorix]

what are the main features one would look for in a well fitted collar? Obviously the pulling away from the neckline is a bad thing - see Chas's suit above.

What else, specifically? I've always wondered, since most collars look fine to me, but i hear people say they don't look right.

bk

I'd say most collars look fine, but only a few really look great.

It's a bit hard to explain, and I'm not sure I entirely understand it myself, but it's most clear when you see someone wearing a really well made suit. Whereas on a lot of RTW and ill-fitting suits the collar (viewed from the rear) seems to have a presence of its own and be a separate thing, a well-fitted collar looks like it's draped around the neck, almost painted on. It's so snugly fitted it almost looks like a second shirt collar fastened around.

Also, it has to do with the way the shoulders and the upper back below the collar fit--smoothly, easily, without pulling or rippling.

A poorly made or -fitted collar looks like it's a standing-bit of the coat, but a well-done collar looks more like it's part of the wearer's neck.

I know I'm not describing this very well, but it's kinda difficult. Every couple of weeks I'll notice a man on the street who's obviously wearing a bespoke suit--it just stands out because it fits so well. I couldn't have noticed the difference a couple of years ago, but since I've been paying attention it has become easier to spot.

 

[Matt Deckard]

You just can't beat the classic dinner jacket.

 

[thunderw21]

I like the peaked lapels on single-breasted jackets, especially dinner jackets. Below is my double-breasted dinner jacket and vest. The lapels are grosgrain. Does it seem lopsided to the right to you?

And from the 1935 (I think) catolog:

 

[Jovan]

The lapels on yours are a little more curved, and there are pocket flaps. Plus, a 4x1 dinner jacket was and is still a common style. I do have to wonder if that waistcoat even came with it... you wouldn't be able to see it anyways.

What bugs me is that there's notch lapels on there, but no shawl to be seen!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

i'm willing to bet that that's not the whole page and that the shawl appears somewhere out of shot.

Saw a '38 dated notch lapel DJ the other day. Candian, i think it was.

bk

 

[Fletch]

Being as I'm interested in popular music history, I have seen about 8 quingigillion photographs of men in tuxedos. After about 1928 you NEVER saw a dance band man wearing the notch lapel. They just disappeared. Of course these were mostly young men in a stylish profession.

 

[slicedbread]

May I ask when is/was the appropriate time for a frock suit? What should be worn with it?

 

[Jovan]

If I'm correct, a frock coat or suit was regular daytime wear. Often you'd see it paired with various types of grey striped trousers, much like the cutaway coat.

 

[slicedbread]

If I'm correct, a frock coat or suit was regular daytime wear. Often you'd see it paired with various types of grey striped trousers, much like the cutaway coat.

Why, then would it come with matching vest and pants? I figure if it has matching pants and vest then perhaps it's evening wear? I'm more concerned with what shirt to wear and what neckwear etc

 

[Jovan]

Men often wore all black suits for daytime, such as the sacque suit. There were of course, variations.

 

[Midnight Blue]

And from the 1935 (I think) catolog:

I've been researching dinner jackets for years and have never come across references to the notched collar prior to the 1960s until now. If anyone has an illustration that can be accurately dated I'd love to my black tie web site. Thanks.

 

[Jovan]

Notched lapel dinner jackets have been around since the early '20s if I'm correct.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Notched lapel dinner jackets have been around since the early '20s if I'm correct.

Yes, I have seen that claim on this site but it's important that I get specific proof because I want to make sure that I can back up any statements I make on my own site.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Found What I Was Looking For

I went back to my photocopies of Men's Wear magazine from the 20s and found a few references to notched lapel dinner jackets. (I also had my faith in the golden era restored when I noticed articles pointing out that they were rarely worn and not considered technically correct. )

 

[Jovan]

Much like now, they are only a trendy thing and aren't correct. But the reason so many department stores sell them is because it's cheap to just face a few sections of the pattern they already have for a ventless (or vented ) two button suit in silk and leave out the second button. Even Brooks Brothers was doing this up until now -- though they do sell a three button notched lapel dinner jacket, too, presumably so they can still make some money off of the young and trendy.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I've been researching dinner jackets for years and have never come across references to the notched collar prior to the 1960s until now. If anyone has an illustration that can be accurately dated I'd love to my black tie web site. Thanks.

I can go buy you one from 1938 for about 50 bucks. Been in the shop for 2 months, seems like it won't sell.

I've been researching dinner jackets for about 2 minutes, and golden era texts (apparel arts, esquire, Esquire's Encyclopaedia, Men's Wear) are full of references to, and pictures of, notch lapel dinner jackets.

Esquire's encyclopaedia has this to say: "In 1923 the dinner jacket fr both undergraduates and alumni had rounded notch lapels and was worn with a wing collar, a black bow tie, and a white waistcoat [fashion institute of technology]"

Interestingly the Encyclopaedia also has this to say about the first introduction of the DJ:

"Traditionalists adopted a condescending attitude toward the innovation, regarding it as semi-formal evening attire, but was not without its admirers"

bk