Flip flops in the white house.

[Doe Peterson]

Doe Peterson, have you expressed this to their parents? I understand the students wishing to express their individuality. I seriously wonder how a parent justifies such fashion.

My students are between the ages of 9 and 11 and I have definitely expressed the appropriateness of dress at school, if not just for safety sake. I will quote a few of the parents' responses, "Mrs. Peterson, it's the style!"

 

[Doe Peterson]

Ever give a thought to trying out this guy's idea?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3785&page=2&pp=15

When I was a Policeman in the 80's and 90s, I used to buy cheap little pad locks at the dollar store. Keep them open and throw away the key. I would inform the little saggers that they were in violation of modesy and general laws of nature. At that point I would take up the slack their britches and lock belt loops together, then leave. Never recieved a complaint for that one, surprisingly.

Ha,ha,ha,ha...if only I could!

 

[android]

Well, at least there's not any denim in sight!

 

[Johnnysan]

Doe Peterson, have you expressed this to their parents? I understand the students wishing to express their individuality. I seriously wonder how a parent justifies such fashion.

Good question, but sadly, I'd lay healthy odds that MANY of these parents would look at you with that glazed doughnut look and then explain to you how "kids need to be kids" and launch into some diatribe about individuality, freedom of expression, peer pressure, yada, yada, yada. And then there are the few that would complain about you to the local school board for being a "snob" (sound familiar?) and criticising their little darlings for looking and acting like dregs.

The bottom line is that what passes as fashion is sadly a barometer for many bigger issues in this country, including a growing propensity to disconnect from what were once commonly accepted and followed social mores and practices. We're sadly becoming a society of "least common denominator" where we all have to accept the lowest forms of behavior in order to get along. This isn't an issue of "conservative v. liberal" - this is an issue of living in a society that values individuality while preserving a sense of culture, appropriateness of time and place for everything and a certain refinement of character.

The hypocracy in all of this is that the crowd who most often demands tolerance is unwilling to be tolerant of those of us who expect them to demonstrate some respect for the rest of us.

 

[Feraud]

"Mrs. Peterson, it's the style!"

That figures. "It is the style" or "everyone has one" is the response I hear from parents when they do not want to make and enforce decisions towards their children.
My son graduated 5th grade this year. Many children in his class have cellphones. My son expressed an interest. We said "no", he is too young and does not need it. End of story. What I notice is most parents give in to their children in order to not have to interact with them.

Such is life...

 

[android]

I'll occassionally wear these to work with linen or Hawaiian shirts and poplin slacks. I have a brown pair.

Flip flops and Tevas have been on the decline since OSHA banned them in the labs, but there are still plenty of them around.

 

[Feraud]

The hypocracy in all of this is that the crowd who most often demands tolerance is unwilling to be tolerant of those of us who expect them to demonstrate some respect for the rest of us.

Exactly! My biggest pet peeve is conversation in public. Everyone wants their "rights" to use whatever foul and inappropriate language they see fit but think nothing of respecting the rights of others to not have to listen to them! Is there any wonder why Americans litigate everything?

If a person is too stupid to not put a cup of hot coffee between their legs while driving, what are the odds that they could raise responsible children?

I am sorry if I sound harsh but I have very little tolerance for ignorance and useless litigation.

 

[BD Jones]

This is my endless battle as a teacher. Children coming to school with pants that are hanging BELOW the rear(I'm still fascinated by how they sort of stay on) and t-shirts so long that they're almost touching their feet. They don't moan and groan anymore,but when they hit the classroom door those shirts must be tucked in. I know it's the hip-hop fashion and children want to express themselves, but they can barely walk or do much of anything with these silly clothes that (and here's the amazing part) their parents bought for them!

In the district I teach in, we have a strict dress code (well, the kids think it's strict) that states that the waist of the pants must be worn around the waist of the body. Also, shirts cannot go past the back pocket or they must be tucked in. We even have a "no flip-flop/shower shoe" rule, as do most of the schools in our area. If a student fails to comply with these rules, they are placed in "In School Suspension" (ISS) until such time they decide to wear their clothes properly or have clothes delivered that are more appropriate. This was a new policy this past year. At first kids and parents fought the policy, but now it is just accepted. So, if it is not appropriate for school, why should it be appropriate in a public place or a formal setting?

 

[Feraud]

At first kids and parents fought the policy, but now it is just accepted.

I am glad to hear about that. Some school districts do not have the 'you know what' to enforce decency codes.

 

[BD Jones]

I am glad to hear about that. Some school districts do not have the 'you know what' to enforce decency codes.

Actually, they didn't until I was stuck on the committee to revise the handbook a few years ago. It used to be a very loose dress code. I'm the one who convinced the administration that a stricter dress code was needed in order to give our kids the ALL of the proper tools to succeed after high school. I brought in a few university recruiters and business leaders to talk about how they perceive people based upon dress/appearance and the correlation between dress and success. I remember a university official I brought in saying, "If you dress like trash, act like trash, and talk like trash, people will treat you like trash."

I hated being on the committee at first, but then relished in the fact that the kids are dressing the way that I wanted them to dress. {insert evil laugh here}.

 

[Johnnysan]

I stated my opinions here without being directly put down up until this moment. I resent your comment sir. I felt someone should support these girls even in defeat. Being young doesn't mean I'm in the dark

You resent my comment? You seem to have no problem coming onto this board and referring to people who disagree with your position as "close minded", "haughty", "hypocritical", "trivial" and "snobs." You suggest that we are ignorant because we don't keep up with your idea of fashion.

You are absolutely correct however, in that being young doesn't mean you're in the dark. Your ignorance of how your choice of language will illicit a response from those you intentionally go out of your way to offend does.

If you want to learn a bit more about the world around you from someone else's perspective, then this is as good a place as any to expand the breadth of your knowledge. But if you're looking for an apology any time someone dresses you down for throwing the first stone, then keep looking.

 

[android]

I guess I am just speaking from my age group's view point. I am but 21 years old- I suppose that makes me young in age, yes, perhaps a bit naive, I agree; but I am also up on fashion. I love fashion of all kinds and that is only why I defend these young women.

Fashion is the clothing industry's way to persuade you to discard perfectly good clothes before they are worn because they are now ugly. That is because they want you to buy more.

I say if it is ugly twelve months after you bought it, it was ugly in the first place.

Fashionable clothes end up at the Goodwill and Salvation Army.

Stylish clothes are a different story. You refuse to part with them and eventually wear them out.

 

[FlapperRen]

Fashion is the clothing industry's way to persuade you to discard perfectly good clothes before they are worn because they are now ugly. That is because they want you to buy more.

I say if it is ugly twelve months after you bought it, it was ugly in the first place.

Fashionable clothes end up at the Goodwill and Salvation Army.

Stylish clothes are a different story. You refuse to part with them and eventually wear them out.

I'm absolutely positive I didn't come to this forum because I wear trendy clothes. I am a collector of vintage and antique fashion from the 1860s-1960s. I will have to agree with you that the clothing industry's output nowadays is pretty wretched and very fleeting. But I suppose on the whole this story is just a bit rediculous. I can't believe how offended so many are over this.

If manners, good taste, common sense, an expectation of mutual respect and civility are the bench marks of snobbery, then I stand guilty as charged. Your comments - and the way you present them - are exactly why people like me think that many in your generation are in the dark.

While I respect a healthy difference of opinion, you may find a more receptive audience for your ideas about "fashion" elsewhere.

I am fairly sure every generation is not without flaws

 

[LaMedicine]

I am fairly sure every generation is not without flaws

That is quite true. Every generation has one item or another that was the bane of their elders. (Mine? Miniskirts and psychedelic prints I took up the miniskirt, but never the prints, they made me dizzy )

Their clothes are not bad, much better than some of what you see on the streets these days. Girls being girls, I imagine they would have gone into a flurry of talk on what to wear when they got the invitation. Some probably would have consulted their parents. Too bad that they didn't share with others if they were told anything about footwear. They may have even been instructed to dress respectably by whomever was responsible for the team. It is too bad that that whomever didn't add something like, "I'm sure you have enough sense not to wear flip flops" as I'm sure there'd have been a few wearing them when they received the news, so part of the blame probably goes to their coaches or the university staff responsible in sending these girls off. I'd also say that they probably have had less practice at dressing formally than the older generation, since there seems to be less of events that require, say, "Sunday church clothes" in general. What would have been classified as casual in the past are accepted as passable at fairly informal gatherings these days, so the younger generation would see less of their parents, especially their moms, go into a dither dressing to go out for something or another.
By now, I suppose these poor girls would be mortified by their faux pas, since it's caused an uproar in nationally syndicated news, and their own family's given out comments of being embarrassed. It is a great pity that they will be remembered for the focus on their footwear, not for their national championship, which must have taken long and hard hours of training and practice to win, which is what they should be remembered for.
So, I guess the blame is not just on girls, but those who are around them, and should know better.
And, at least, the White House accepted them on their accomplishment, and not on what they were wearing, which, actually, is not bad news.

I guess the point of the disscussion here is where you draw the line at propriety and being presentable in a certain scenery. As you say, what is fashionably acceptable changes, but what is socially acceptable changes much more slowly than the trendiest of scenes, and unforutnatley, the girls fell into that pitfall. I'm sure, when we meet them personally, they are all sweet and decent, intelligent, hardworking girls. How else could they have become national champions?

 

[K.D. Lightner]

I am glad that one of my favorite styles is a "preppy" look, i.e. blazers, dressy shirts, silk scarves, tailored trousers, and loafers or what has been called "sensible shoes." It was in fashion when I was in college, people who worked wore it even during the hippie era, I wore it all through the 70's, 80's, and even here in Southern California.

No flimsy shoes -- I couldn't get away with it, even if I wanted.

Soon I will retire. Some of my workmates retired and stopped wearing bras, dressy clothes, and makeup. I intend to dress as I have for forty years -- sans makeup, which I last wore in 1973, but I want my blazers and sensible shoes.

karol

 

[whistlebait]

flip flops have always equalled shower shoes to me.

 

[The Wingnut]

I couldn't wear flip flops as a kid...I was too active. Scarred up my toes pretty badly until I switched back to sneakers. Didn't like how much they hurt the web between my toes, either. I'll put on sandals (Timberland, leather with a sneaker-style footbed) when the weather gets hot enough to need them, but I wouldn't wear them to work, or out on the town. If I were to leave the house, I'd throw on some shoes.

Trends in the past 25 years have leaned further and further towards shock value and comfort / casual. Irreverence in general can be blamed for a lack of propriety. Some use it as a way to rebel, some just don't care, and most - at least those who haven't been taught better - just don't know.

 

[Zemke Fan]

I have an office pool going...

It's based on the last day when I do NOT see some young woman on the Washington Metro in flip-flops. I've got December 23, which is my last day of work this year...

 

[Bebop]

"There are a lot of men wearing flip flops to everything. I see them all the time at work."
This is a nasty phenomenon. Men's feet should NEVER be on display! NO ONE wants to see that!!
flat-top

I agree and take it a step further. No one wants to see men's legs either. Men should not wear shorts. Shorts are for women to wear and men to enjoy.

 

[Lena_Horne]

I read that Washington Post article in full and disagree with the idea that somehow dressing your children up in a cute, sensible manner is "too much." I happen to think that Jack and Josie looked adorable, and as someone who follows the Kennedys, Jack certainly didn't looked like John Jr. For one his shorts were too long for my (and history's) taste:

I also disagree with the idea that someone "speaks" for my generation. As a nineteen year old who appreciates "old fashioned" sensibilities I marvel at the way I have dressed over the years. A lot of students my age and in my area fight proper presentation tooth and nail, have no sense of proper behavior and don't see any problem with "acting a fool" in public. I'll admit that until a few years ago I was chugging right along with that train. Thankfully I've become a lot more conservative and gained a complete sense of awe for the standards of my grandparents generation. I too feel that their chosen footwear was inappropriate for the occassion but also the idea that they can be defended in such a situation. They made a bad call, okay, now how can we let them know?

I think it gets right down to helping them understand when to consider something embarrassing as children. If you don't know better when you're young it's gets harder to figure out when you hit adolescence.

I especially miss--and I've discussed this with friends--the time when you were considered a representation of your family. It said something about your mother and father's ability to discipline you as well as your willingness to respect them whenever you messed up. But now parents don't want to deal with children, and don't want anyone saying anything to them about that said child's bad behavior. Sometimes I can't wait to become a parent in my own right, then I think about all of the outside pressures undermining a task that I hold very dearly. Oh, you're going to scar Johnny for life if you don't let him paint his fingernails. Oh, that's just the style, my daughter Bonnie wears a thong too, who's it going to hurt?

And it's even worse when parents are the offenders, I shudder to think about how a mother would sit down with her daughter and have a talk after little Julie found Mommy's thong in the bathroom. Ech.

L_H