Favorite Uniforms

[Stearmen]

this is me in the grey overcoat with my guard of female hussars

VM

Hmm, maybe it isn't the man that makes the uniform!

 

[Dixon Cannon]

My obsession has always been WWII Luftwaffe. Currently I'm going through a "Fliegerführer Afrika"
phase (ala Hans Joachim Marseilles). Maybe because it's about 110°f in my part of Arizona these days!

-dixon cannon

 

[Edward]

Fascinating things, uniforms. It strikes me that there is something very homo-erotic about military dress uniform. Maybe there's a better term for it - I'm not suggesting that it looks "gay" per se (not that that should be an insult, anyhow), but it is certainly the case that at least in Europe and the US it is all about making men look good, manly, "handsome".. obviously it is in some great extent designed to make the military look good, both literally and figuratively. It's interesting to look to the East and see how they do it over there, where (Soviet and former soviet States and China, in particular) women are much more in the front line, how they adapt the uniforms for them. A lot of it is psychological impact. Of course Hitler in particular wanted his armies to look great - the Aryan Superman image would have been let down terribly by bad tailoring. It's certainly testament to the evil that the Nazis did that nearly seventy years on from their defeat we're still all so quick to qualify our admiration for their tailoring by emphasising our rejection of their ideology. You'd like to hope that could be taken as read, but alas in today's world there are some sick people around. I feel instinctively uncomfortable even as I admire the tailoring of the SS and the SA in a way far different than Wehrmacht etc. I suppose it's a natural thing to distinguish between the political idealists and the poor buggers who were conscripted or even signed up willingly believing they were fighting for their country, rather than the ideology of the then ruling elite.

In fact it is. Hogan's Heroes is subject to a number of criticisms, but the fact that it involved survivors like Robert Clary poking fun at the ghastly situation seems like a triumph of humanity to me.

Mark
.

EXACTLY! Bravo! not unlike Allo Allo in England in the Eighties was a continuation of the old English tradition of dis empowering the "hun" by laughing at him. Fascinating psychology behind it all. In many ways I see The Producers having elements of this. While we can never dismiss the evil that Naziism did, I do think it healthy to mock it also. Time and a place, of course...

Nope probably not the best idea: Walk out in the middle of a field,
wearing bright red uniforms and drumming.... lol

Heh. I'm reminded of that line in The Red Baron - "I want them to see me. I want them to fear me!"

The German uniforms in most TV shows and movies are wrong, only in varying degrees. No SS officers were capering about in black Allegemeine uniforms during the war years, certainly not after 1942. No one wanted to advertise his 'in the rear with the gear' status. (No, I don't believe the usual exception for dress occasions either unless shown a dated photo-yet to appear.). Yet, Major Hochstetter has clung to his sinister schwarz duds. This seems to be a Hollywood costumer's affectation and one I would endorse for its theatrical effect. Who cares?
("Downfall" has about the most accurate uniforms but even here, there are flaws.Film companies seem to avoid uniform cranks as consultants, and in fairness, no one can 'know it all' even though I pretend to.)

I think it's a mix of things. For one, let's face it, most people "out there" don't really know or care - as long as they look like "Nazis". and also, well..... while it is by no means the case for all enthusiasts, some of the people who do know all of the detail of the German and Nazi WW2 uniforms are, well.... a bit on the scary side. (I'm sure there is, albeit perhaps to a lesser extreme, a Confederate equivalent in the US CW scene. ). historical accuracy is one thing, but it's inevitable that we are always gonig to look back on that period through the filter of what we know now.

...if you are issued with a service shirt (Police or Military) take it to a good tailor and get it custom fitted, and if you can get away with it (some services won't allow this), get the creases stitched in. It pays to look sharp Gents, really it does!
I still (even on my civvie shirts and pants) use starch to get a crease to cut yourself on. The right people 'do notice!'

By the "right people", do you mean employers, prospective employers, or the ladies? Or all three? (I'd go with "all three" myself ).

Ah, but in the era before smokeless powder, telephones, radio, and modern ammunition, very practical indeed. The fear wasn't being spotted by the enemy - one had to stand up to load and fire a musket in any case, and massed bodies of infantry was the only practical way of fighting during the period, camouflage would have been a waste of time (excluding for those in specialist skirmishing/hit and run/guerilla roles, such as as rifleman). A far greater fear would be the commander not knowing what was going on on the battlefield and losing control of his troops. The red coat was obvious amongst the white smoke, the drums were an effective communications devise that could be heard of a battlefield, the colours and facings marked out which unit was which...in many respects, the British were ahead of other countries regular forces in this regard - having the most easily-spottable infantry (some countries wore white uniforms...rather impractical in the gunsmoke of a battlefield considering the above). And we did adopt khaki in the tropics and drab in temperate climes before anyone else.

Is it true or an urban legend that the English adopted the red coats in order that a bleeding would would not show, preventing the enemy from having the psychological advantage of knowing he had scored a hit?

I imagine having such a striking uniform, a sea of red, could be pretty intimidating to the enemy, particularly an enemy such as the feudal Jacobite army, who lacked the same uniformity of approach.

The Papal Swiss Guards certainly appreciate vintage when they see it.

Is this the oldest uniform design still in (ceremonial) use today?

WWII US European Theater combat uniforms are a favorite of mine...

I'm not especially knowledgeable on military history. My knowledge of the period is based much more on the political developments, the road to war, and the peace making rather than the military campaigns as such. It does, however, seem to me that WW2 was one of the first major conflicts where there was a very definite distinction between official issue field uniforms and dress? WW1, at least the Brits, looked much the same. Actually, the Great War seems to have been a turning point for a lot of things - first air war, probably the last time that cavalry charge were lead by officers wielding swords.... against machine guns.... (war certainly is all hell).

Having served in the danish airforce for 4 years, ending up as a senior sergent, I have to admit that I have had it with uniforms.

If ever I had been inclined or was obliged to do time in the armed forces, I suspect I would feel rather the same.

The two last pictures is of my wife Xiaojian and myself

Where is your wife from? I've spent a fair bit of time in China over the past few years. Mostly Beijing, which I adore, but also visited Xi'An, Guilin, and Hong Kong. Wonderful people, lovely country. Has its issues, of course, though everywhere does to some extent. Fascinating culture.

Berdan's Sharpshooters, armed with Sharps rifles!

Nice! I do like that uniform very much. Great colour.

 

[Edward]

I'm personally quite fond of the uniforms of the Irish Citizen Army, circa 1916:

The old Royal Irish Constabulary, uniforms were pretty sharp, as were the An Garda Síochána that followed. The RUC had a cracking looking uniform; alas the PSNI uniforms that replaced it were not only rather less stylish but also apparently of a much lower quality. While the Garda are blue (always were - a deliberate step to distinguish the new, unarmed Free State police force from the paramilitary (in the technical, rather than modern, sense of the word) RIC that preceded it), the RIC and RUC in the North opted for a beautiful, deep green hue, just a shade or two darker than the Berdan's Sharp Shooters. I'm sure I read somewhere that Ireland was one of the first places in Europe to have an official state police uniform that was distinctly different from the military, though I can't imagine it was before England.

The Free State Army uniforms that came in with the Free State in 1922 were a nice design:

The cap reminds me a little of a USAAF crusher.

I like uniforms probably a little more than is entirely normal.... I'd rather not dwell on some of the things people have done or have had to have done while wearing them, though.

 

[Tommy Gun Jack]

Hey, I don't know if this is of any importance to anybody here, but I found this great facebook page. It displays all this guy's uniforms of the British Empire in the late 30s, and early war period. It's a fairly new page. It's amazing the different uniforms this guy has. Anyway, if you're interested, you might go take a look.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/British-Empire-Uniforms-1939-1943/365555366788383?ref=ts

 

[Widebrim]

Nothing beats a USN uniform. Dress blues WWI. Familiar face.......

"On all the ships, in all the navies, in all the world..." etc!

Bogie got his lip split by a piece of wood propelled by an explosion during the war, didn't he?

 

[Widebrim]

Garry Owen!

-SGT Bartoletti, G Troop, 1/82 CAV

 

[Klaus A]

Here's a bit of a puzzler. Can anyone identify the origin of the uniforms worn by these German troops in Poland in 1939? It's obviously not the M36 uniform.

It look like converted Austrian uniforms with German style dark green collars (originaly with standing collar). I would guess, that they are former soldiers of Austrian Army after the Anschluß. They appear to also Austrian field caps (both visorless and with leather visor). Some did not get the new German uniforms immediatly.

 

[Hatsquad]

Australian Light Horse uniform in Palestine, and the Canadian 2nd Mounted
Regiment uniform in the South African War (Boer).

I guess it's the hats.

 

[Stearmen]

Garry Owen!

-SGT Bartoletti, G Troop, 1/82 CAV

I wonder if he was a new immigrant as so many of the Army were at the time?

 

[Widebrim]

^^He likely may have been; looks a bit Prussian with that moustache. What you say about the Army having many immigrants in those days is often lost in history. The very term, Garry Owen, the motto of the 7th Cavalry Regiment, actually comes from an Irish song, attesting to the large number of sons of Erin in that regiment. There was a Garibaldi Brigade in the Union Army during the Civil War, and it wasn't just comprised of Italian immigrants, but of many Europeans. The Confederacy also had an Irish Brigade. (Interestingly, the Army no longer has the largest group of immigrants, that title now being claimed by the U.S. Navy.)

 

[Edward]

^^He likely may have been; looks a bit Prussian with that moustache. What you say about the Army having many immigrants in those days is often lost in history. The very term, Garry Owen, the motto of the 7th Cavalry Regiment, actually comes from an Irish song, attesting to the large number of sons of the Erin in that regiment. There was a Garibaldi Brigade in the Union Army during the Civil War, and it wasn't just comprised of Italian immigrants, but of many Europeans. The Confederacy also had an Irish Brigade. (Interestingly, the Army no longer has the largest group of immigrants, that title now being claimed by the U.S. Navy.)

There were many Irish on oth sides in the ACW. The 69th New York being one famous, very Irish and very Roman Catholic regiment on the Union side. The 10th Tennessee of the CSA is an interesting one, bearing in mind the tribal factions fomenting in the Ireland they left behind, that were to really take effect in the revolutionary period a generation later: the men of the tenth were, broadly speaking, Irish Catholics, while the officer class Protestant.... and elected by the men. Of course, it really only was into the beginning of the twentieth century that these religious labels started to be noticeably attached to one side or the other, many nineteenth century Irish rebels / freedom fighters (delete according to personal politics.... ) being protestant in point of fact (see the United Irishmen and their rising of 1798, Wolfe Tone et al). I have an eye out for a good book on the Irish in the ACW, if anyone has a mind to recommend one.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

There were many Irish on oth sides in the ACW. The 69th New York being one famous, very Irish and very Roman Catholic regiment on the Union side. The 10th Tennessee of the CSA is an interesting one, bearing in mind the tribal factions fomenting in the Ireland they left behind, that were to really take effect in the revolutionary period a generation later: the men of the tenth were, broadly speaking, Irish Catholics, while the officer class Protestant.... and elected by the men. Of course, it really only was into the beginning of the twentieth century that these religious labels started to be noticeably attached to one side or the other, many nineteenth century Irish rebels / freedom fighters (delete according to personal politics.... ) being protestant in point of fact (see the United Irishmen and their rising of 1798, Wolfe Tone et al). I have an eye out for a good book on the Irish in the ACW, if anyone has a mind to recommend one.

There's tons of books out there on the subject. A good place to start would be Irish-American Units in the American Civil War. It's part of the excellent Osprey Men at Arms series. The book's emphasis is on the uniforms but it does give an overview of the Irish regiments that fought in the conflict.

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-American-Units-Civil-War-Men-at-Arms/dp/1846033268/ref=pd_sim_b_5

 

[Widebrim]

^^Interesting history, preceded by twenty years of Irish deserters of the U.S. Army who went down to Mexico and fought against the U.S. during the Mexican-American War...

 

[alden405]

donkey slapper from ww2

pinks and greens for me is hard to beat

 

[Widebrim]

^^I agree, especially U.S. Cavalry...

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Both sides, particularly for general officers. Officers on both sides were mostly the pre-Civil War army officers, divided by their loyalties as in other civil wars. The most visible difference was the rank insignia. Both sides' generals wore the crossed saber and baton in two locations, on the collar, with differences in the 'stars' (Republican red five pointed stars, Nationalist gold four pointed) and on the skeeves/cuffs (Republicans, same as the collar but larger and just above the cuff; Nationalist same as the collar but larger and on the cuff).
Here:
Franco/Nationalist: http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/BE081989.html
Miaja/Republican: [http://www.euskomedia.org/aunamendi/95617
The Republican soldiers and even officers wore a hodge-podge of uniforms, and even civilian clothing. The Nationalists were generally better supplied with kit.
What makes the 'regulation' officers' uniforms appealing, to me, is their relative simplicity and utilitarian look, particularly the pointed closed collars and the simple leather or plain metal buttons. The sashes were a frill but 'Sam Browne' belts were often worn, particularly by Republican officers. I know there are Loungers with much deeper knowledge of these but that's my take.

Of Spanish Civil War uniforms I've always liked that of the Guardia de Asalto (Assault Guards or "Asaltos") the urban riot police formed by the Spanish Republic. Though among the paramilitary forces, the Asaltos are largely identified with the Republicans and the Guardia Civil associated with the Nationalists, in truth Asaltos and Guardia Civil fought on both sides. Though the numbers of pro-Republican Guardia Civil and Asaltos with Nationalist sympathies were small.

 

[Guttersnipe]

There were many Irish on oth sides in the ACW. The 69th New York being one famous, very Irish and very Roman Catholic regiment on the Union side. The 10th Tennessee of the CSA is an interesting one, bearing in mind the tribal factions fomenting in the Ireland they left behind, that were to really take effect in the revolutionary period a generation later: the men of the tenth were, broadly speaking, Irish Catholics, while the officer class Protestant.... and elected by the men. Of course, it really only was into the beginning of the twentieth century that these religious labels started to be noticeably attached to one side or the other, many nineteenth century Irish rebels / freedom fighters (delete according to personal politics.... ) being protestant in point of fact (see the United Irishmen and their rising of 1798, Wolfe Tone et al). I have an eye out for a good book on the Irish in the ACW, if anyone has a mind to recommend one.

There's tons of books out there on the subject. A good place to start would be Irish-American Units in the American Civil War. It's part of the excellent Osprey Men at Arms series. The book's emphasis is on the uniforms but it does give an overview of the Irish regiments that fought in the conflict.

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-American-Units-Civil-War-Men-at-Arms/dp/1846033268/ref=pd_sim_b_5

The 2nd Brigade of the 1st Division, 2nd Army Corps -- of which the 69th New York State Militia a part -- was almost entirely first and second generation Irish immigrants. The brigade consisted of the 69th NYSM, 63rd NY Volunteer Infantry, 88th Ny Volunteer Infantry. Over the course of the war, due to extremely heavy losses, the brigade was reenforced with 28th Massachusetts and 116th Pennsylvania.

One interesting thing about the American Civil War is that the Union Army had a very high proportion if immigrants in its ranks (almost 25%). While the Irish immigrants get the most attention, German born immigrants actually outnumbered Irish soldiers. Close to half of all foreign born Union solders were German.

Back to uniforms, here is another of my favorites; the 79th NYSM, aka the Cameron Highlanders. They were an Antebellum militia and Postbellum NY National Guard unit. Their peacetime dress uniform was full highland dress. They served in the American Civil War with great distinction as part of the 9th Corps and were awarded the title Veteran Volunteers in 1864 after reenlisting fror the duration of the war after having served since 1861.

 

[kiwilrdg]

One interesting thing about the American Civil War is that the Union Army had a very high proportion if immigrants in its ranks (almost 25%). While the Irish immigrants get the most attention, German born immigrants actually outnumbered Irish soldiers. Close to half of all foreign born Union solders were German.

The Irish get the most attention toaday but if you read contemporary accounts the german influence is more obvious. The poem/song lyrics "I Goes to Fight Mit Segel" springs right to mind.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Another popular Civil War song was Corporal Schnapps, about a German immigrant who's urged to join the Union Army by his sweetheart who then moves back to Germany with another man. But despite his heartbreak he remains loyal to his new homeland and fights on.

Mein heart is broken into little bits
I tell you friend what for
Mein sweetheart, one good patriotic girl
She drives me off mit der war
I fights for her ze battles of ze flag
I strikes so brave as I can
But now long time she nicht remembers me
Und goes mit another man

CHORUS:
Ach, Mein fräulein!
You ist so very unkind
You goes mit Hans to Germany to live
Und leaves poor Schnapps behind
Und leaves poor Schnapps behind

I march all day no matter if der storm
Be worse as Moses' flood;
I lays all night, mein head upon a stump
And "sinks to sleep" in der mud.
Der nightmare comes -- I catch him very bad
I dreams I sleeps mit der ghost;
I wakes next morning frozen in der ground
So stiff as one stone post

CHORUS

They gives me hard bread, tougher as a rock
It almost breaks mein jaw;
I splits 'em sometimes mit an iron wedge,
Und cuts 'em up with a saw.
They give me beef, so very, very salt,
Like Sodom's wife, you know;
I surely thinks they put 'em in der brine
One hundred years ago

CHORUS

By und by we takes one city in der south
We stays there one whole year;
It kits me sauerkraut, as much as I can eat.
Und plenty local beer.
I meets one lady rebel in der street
So handsome ever I see:
I makes to her one very gallant bow
But ach! She spits on me.

CHORUS

Hard times! you say, What for you volunteer?
I told you, friend, what for:
Mein sweetheart, one good patriotic girl,
She drove me off mit der war.
Alas! Alas! Mein pretty little one
Will smile no more on me;
But still I fights ze battles of ze flag
To set mein countries free.

CHORUS