Ever think some jackets are overhyped

[Brandrea33]

It depends under which conditions.
I am not ready to spend any money on having that jacket remade, shipping + import tax will be just under $1000.
If Mr. Himel is ready to pay for shipping both way and pay for import taxes i am happy to put the jacket in a box, print a label and send it.
If he wants me to pay for shipping and customs i would rather keep this one and put it on my wall.
IMO the ball is in his court.

I’d say enjoy your wall art then, but perhaps Himel Bros is more charitable than me.

 

[Carlos840]

I’d say enjoy your wall art then, but perhaps Himel Bros is more charitable than me.

I didn't post these pics because i wanted a remake in the first place.
I don't want to spend 1000$ more on this jacket just to maybe get better stitching, it makes no sens to me, especially when i can get a better jacket for less money from other makers.

Edit: Also you say "charitable" but IMO if the maker judges his product unfit for purpouse this is the correct thing to do.
A few months ago i bought a Vanson, it arrived with a slightly torn seam.
Vanson sent me a return label, made a new jacket and sent it to me shipping and taxes paid. In two weeks i had my new jacket.
(not the same thing i am aware, but still in the saem ball park)

 

[willyto]

@ton312 - You're right -- the leather adjacent to your zippers is not wavy -- I have definitely seen wavy leather on other jackets but not yours -- my statement was overbroad and I apologize. I will remove it from my post.

Can you post a picture of what you're refering to? I wonder if that becomes more visible with wear which would be the reason why @ton312 jackets don't have it Just kidding but to be honest the jackets get sold so fast we never get to see wear on them!

Regarding @himelator and @Parker HBL posts I don't what else people want them to say. They're clearly saying they've remade jackets when stuff was brought up to them and they came to an agreement with the buyers. I don't know if @Carlos840 ever did that but it looks like they were unaware and in fact they have been using his photos as marketing for a few years. Had they known it I think they would have offered it back then.

I honestly don't know why people have Dave Himel as such an "arrogant" person as some have mentioned. I've never had that impression, never had any bad communication with Parker either when he contacted me when I got my Grizzly and I don't think they have lied about who makes the jackets and how, in fact is one of the fews who has made videos talking about the jackets, what zippers he uses and why, how he dyes them, why he chooses his leathers, why the designs,etc. I don't recall him ever trashing any other makers, he just says it like it is: Japanese makers are made for japanese physiques and their RTW patterns are unlike his bespoke ones made for the person who wears it.

And let's be clear here, my Grizzly sample isn't flawless, but it's that a sample that traveled around and I love it, if it wasn't because the sleeves became too short for me with wear (After moulding to me, stretching the elbow, creases,etc) I would wear it all day long and wouldn't have looked out for alternatives, my Intrepid is fantastic, well made, great design but I sized too small due to the reversible aspect of it but the pattern is fantastic, the armhole is high and it's beautiful.

None of my jackets are perfect, not my Freewheelers(a seam in a pocket of the Darius is a bit loose, the Sunset have quite low armholes, not my Himels(On the Grizzly the cotton at the cuffs is fraying a bit at the seams and has worn out, the stitching inside at the zipper isn't mint and looks like had to be realigned a bit which I couldn't care less, it's inside, it can't be seen and it's just visual. The stitching otherwise I can't really see any problem at all on it) the Intrepid on the other hand I can't see anything on it, not my Eastman(Top stitching unravelled and was cut off on one of the 3/4 leather coats, not my Aero( I don't wear them anymore but one was a sample too made by Ken and another an A-1 which is just huge and the pattern isn't flattering, like what happened to @dudewuttheheck ). None of my vintage jackets are perfect either...

Also I know I'm not the expert on leather but I don't buy the skiving and the envelope argument. The reason I don't is because that's how shoemakers stitch bespoke shoes and I have yet to see any bespoke shoe fall apart or ripp off like what we see in some deffective jackets. The stitching will fail before the leather becomes damaged or ripped and paste or glue is used to piece the leather together and then stitch. Shoes see more wear and we are more hard on them than most people who wear their leather jackets so if a shoemaker use those techniques I wonder why using the same for leather jackets would be a bad thing. I honestly don't buy that.

 

[Marc mndt]

Can you post a picture of what you're refering to?

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-zipper-wavyness.84997/

 

[Mich486]

My Aero jackets were a mixed bag regarding wavy zippers. Hooch hauler pretty obvious:

I think with their lighter leathers the waviness is more apparent from the start with CXL it takes some time.

Look at this example on the sale page...

Not sure is this is necessary to make the jacket more serviceable over time but as I’ve said before there are prettier jackets out there.

Aero jackets do feel very sturdy though. They are like the White’s of leather jackets to make a boot comparison. Not the prettiest but though as nails.

 

[Harris HTM]

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-zipper-wavyness.84997/

Marc thanks for bringing this old thread up to surface again. If we read it carefully it is obvious what kind of distance we have collectively travelled - 5 years ago we found a wavy panel "normal" and we shouldn't bother about it. Fast forward to today we argue about stitch count.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

At the end of the day, we have no actual data to back up claims about skiving and using glue on seems at all either way.

Aero can claim that their way is stronger, but we as consumers see no actual data to back this up. Aero can claim they've taken apart Japanese jackets and say they're unrepairable, but I've had my Freewheelers jackets altered with no issues and again, there is no actual data to back anything up. It's just what they say based on their experiences that we as consumers cannot actually see.

Also, just saying "Japanese makers" is a quite reductive in my opinion. I have handled quite a few Japanese leather jackets and they are not all the same by any means. Tenjin Works jackets are as different from RMC to me as Good Wear is to Aero. They do not all use the exact same methods, can have vastly different stitch counts, and are made in many different places.

Guys who do skive their leather such as Himel, Freewheelers, and now Greg can claim that it makes no difference in the durability of the jacket as much as they want, but again, we as consumers see no actual data to prove this. Unless they run tests to prove that skiving makes no difference or no major difference, they are in the same position of Aero in that they are both just saying that they are right based off of their own experiences... experiences that we as consumers have not had or seen and we just have to take their word for it.

Who is right hardly even seams to matter (pun very much intended) at the end of the day. Unless actual flaws exist or some unfortunate circumstance happens, most of these jackets will be more than durable enough for what we wacko jacket collectors actually need. I cannot think of a single jacket maker that hasn't made mistakes with their jackets. Not one. It happens.

We would need to run such a large number of tests on such a large number of jackets to actually get the data right to the point that it will never happen. It also would have to be done completely independently and certain parameters would have to be in place to actually make the tests scientific. Without actual scientific evidence, we have no proof of what any maker claims other. It is only their subjective views and experiences.

At this point, it's a silly argument because pretty much all of us are just going to continue to buy the jackets that we want to buy at the end of the day no matter what the makers say.

Himel and Aero's claims are not the reasons I bought either of their jackets, and the truth behind any claims that either of them have made is not why I sold the jackets I bought from both. Construction had nothing to do with it either.

I personally like neatly constructed jackets with relatively high stitch count. It makes them much more visually pleasing to me. That didn't stop me from buying an Aero, but it is my preference. Others have different preferences and that's great.

Personally, I do not buy the argument about skiving weakening the jackets. I have had this conversation with Greg and with other jacket makers and I trust them. Heck, Greg even talks about it in my interview with him. Does that mean I'm right? No, but I think I am. If you believe Aero, then good for you and I'm sure you think you're right. I have talked to Ken from Aero about this same subject.

Honestly, when you hear each side speak about it in isolation, they both sound like they are correct so if you are partial to one side already, you're probably just going to believe them.

 

[red devil]

Being obsessive about things, the first time I made a jacket that was not absolutely dead to “.1 mm in stitch straightness” I panicked and could not send it out. My brain was overwhelmed at not being “perfect” and I had to be talked down by my team who was much more experienced at making bespoke jackets.

Completely disagree. This thread demonstrates that Himel, as with ALL other manufacturers, is capable of occasionally allowing a substandard jacket out the door. That said, it appears that the overwhelming majority of Himel jackets are well constructed. I have purchased six Himel jackets and every one was well constructed. Two or three errant jackets out of hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- does not demonstrate that Himel jackets are poorly constructed. IMHO, your extrapolation is not well founded.

Just to be clear I said construction is not their strong point, never said they are poorly constructed. This is not my opinion - I am keeping this out of this here - Himel himself says he can not match the Japanese "perfection"... read this passage.

Being obsessive about things, the first time I made a jacket that was not absolutely dead to “.1 mm in stitch straightness” I panicked and could not send it out. My brain was overwhelmed at not being “perfect” and I had to be talked down by my team who was much more experienced at making bespoke jackets.

Perhaps theoretically "more prone," but I am not aware of any real world empirical data suggesting that the theoretical risk has palpable real world consequences (a couple of examples of torn seams out of literally thousands and thousands of jackets employing these methods does not translate to a material risk). Moreover, while I understand the purported trade-off, I personally am willing to accept the theoretical risk in exchange for a better looking jacket.

Me too, I am happy with this "risk"

"Should" being the operative word. Again, this is theoretical. I am not aware of any empirical data demonstrating that "Japanese equivalents" do not last a lifetime . . . and thats plenty long for me. I don't care if my jackets survive for my great great great grandchildren. I would rather have a better looking jacket that lasts my lifetime.

If we were to compare to cars, I would prefer a sports car to trusty Toyota, even if not as reliable.

 

[ton312]

I wonder what this guy thinks about skived seams?
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/freewheelers-horsehide-tear-repair-recommendations.103348/
personally I do believe they weaken a jacket. It’s not a mystery. The hide is thinner, it’s weaker, where the debate lies I have no idea, imho there isn’t one.
Does it allow for prettier seams? Yes of course it does. No debate there either.
I will say this. If I put myself in a skived seamed jacket that is too small I am sure I could blow out both pits and split the back if I tried. I do not think I’d be able to that in an Aero or a Vanson. If people are willing to crowd source the experiment I am willing to provide video evidence of my results. Send me jackets and allow me to attempt to destroy them so we can once and for all put this to bed

 

[JMax]

I wonder what this guy thinks about skived seams?
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/freewheelers-horsehide-tear-repair-recommendations.103348/
personally I do believe they weaken a jacket. It’s not a mystery. The hide is thinner, it’s weaker, where the debate lies I have no idea, imho there isn’t one.
Does it allow for prettier seams? Yes of course it does. No debate there either.
I will say this. If I put myself in a skived seamed jacket that is too small I am sure I could blow out both pits and split the back if I tried. I do not think I’d be able to that in an Aero or a Vanson. If people are willing to crowd source the experiment I am willing to provide video evidence of my results. Send me jackets and allow me to attempt to destroy them so we can once and for all put this to bed

A real- life tommy boy experiment?!? I’m so in. Lol.

 

[Brandrea33]

I didn't post these pics because i wanted a remake in the first place.
I don't want to spend 1000$ more on this jacket just to maybe get better stitching, it makes no sens to me, especially when i can get a better jacket for less money from other makers.

Edit: Also you say "charitable" but IMO if the maker judges his product unfit for purpouse this is the correct thing to do.
A few months ago i bought a Vanson, it arrived with a slightly torn seam.
Vanson sent me a return label, made a new jacket and sent it to me shipping and taxes paid. In two weeks i had my new jacket.
(not the same thing i am aware, but still in the saem ball park)

I guess we all view things through our own lens.

I see the offer as kind and generous. You get a brand new Himel Bros Jacket for the cost of shipping and you’ve enjoyed the current one for a couple of years or whatever it’s been.

Another way to look at it, is if you spend a $1000 on another makers jacket will it be as good as the replacement Himel?

You see his offer as a half measure that’ll still cost you money. I get it.

No right or wrong is suppose just differences of how to look at it.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I wonder what this guy thinks about skived seams?
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/freewheelers-horsehide-tear-repair-recommendations.103348/
personally I do believe they weaken a jacket. It’s not a mystery. The hide is thinner, it’s weaker, where the debate lies I have no idea, imho there isn’t one.
Does it allow for prettier seams? Yes of course it does. No debate there either.
I will say this. If I put myself in a skived seamed jacket that is too small I am sure I could blow out both pits and split the back if I tried. I do not think I’d be able to that in an Aero or a Vanson. If people are willing to crowd source the experiment I am willing to provide video evidence of my results. Send me jackets and allow me to attempt to destroy them so we can once and for all put this to bed

The problem is that the jackets wouldn't be the biggest expense. We would also have to pay for an actual camera for you, too!

If we can't see you ripping the jackets, there's no fun for us!

 

[Superfluous]

Himel himself says he can not match the Japanese "perfection"... read this passage.

True. I just got off the phone with Himel and he makes the point that, when a company manufacturers a series of jackets that are exactly the same (e.g., RMC, FW, FCL, etc.), with no customization, they are able to employee certain manufacturing techniques unavailable to bespoke, one-off manufacturers; and these semi-assembly line manufacturing techniques inherently produce more precise stitching. One person sewing 50-100 left sleeves in a row, on the same size jacket, using the same leather and machine, with no variation in the pattern to accommodate, is very different from someone sewing a single, custom, bespoke sleeve to a single, custom, bespoke body, on a jacket with varying modifications from the original pattern.

Do the foregoing differences in production excuse sloppy stitching? Absolutely not and Himel is the first to acknowledge that, as evidenced by his willingness to remake the very few jackets that have substandard stitching. On the other hand, the foregoing manufacturing differences do explain why the stitching on FW and RMC jackets are generally more precise. These jackets are made in relatively large runs (e.g., over 100 jackets at a time) and employ manufacturing techniques that Himel cannot utilize for his one-off jackets.

Of course, there is a trade-off with FW and RMC -- namely, no customization. If OTR FW and RMC jackets fit you, you are in luck and that may be the better option.

The FL contingent will reply: No trade-off with FL -- you get the best of both worlds with FL. I have never handled a FL jacket and, therefore, I cannot comment on the quality of his construction. I respect those who exalt his construction and accept their opinions as accurate. That said, I suspect a careful comparison of FL jackets as against FW jackets would reveal differences resulting from the aforementioned manufacturing differences. FL may be at the forefront of bespoke manufacturers, but his production model has certain inherent drawbacks as compared to FW or RMC.

FL is less expensive than Himel. However, as discussed in a different thread, FL employs a completely different distribution model that results in lower pricing: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/himel-bros-chevalier-bis.93446/page-4 . GW employs the same distribution model and we know from experience where that can lead. I suspect that, if FL continues to maintain the same quality at a lower price, he too will have a wait list exceeding a year or longer. Kudos to Greg -- he deserves it.

Given his use of third-party retailers, Himel cannot offer similar pricing for his bespoke jackets and concurrently maintain the necessary margins. Thus, anyone purchasing from Himel must absorb the higher pricing inherent in his distribution model. I certainly understand why some are reluctant to do so. Notwithstanding his well-made jackets, Himel is by no means a "good deal."

Himel's marketing strategy projects an unparalleled product. As mentioned above, there are clearly caveats to that mantra. As much as I love Himel's products, he has not cornered the market on stellar bespoke jackets. Moreover, Himel is not ideal for everyone and there are undeniably better values and better options for certain people. In short, Himel is one of several solid options, and on the expensive end of the spectrum. We are fortunate to have so many good options.

Me too, I am happy with this "risk". If we were to compare to cars, I would prefer a sports car to trusty Toyota, even if not as reliable.

Amen brutha!

 

[red devil]

I guess we all view things through our own lens.

I see the offer as kind and generous. You get a brand new Himel Bros Jacket for the cost of shipping and you’ve enjoyed the current one for a couple of years or whatever it’s been.

Another way to look at it, is if you spend a $1000 on another makers jacket will it be as good as the replacement Himel?

You see his offer as a half measure that’ll still cost you money. I get it.

No right or wrong is suppose just differences of how to look at it.

Exactly we all have our views, I do not think he has enjoyed for this couple of years as you state and he probably prefers to spend the $1000 on something else. It does not even have to be jacket related. Is there anything wrong with this?

 

[Ayeteael]

At this point, it's a silly argument because pretty much all of us are just going to continue to buy the jackets that we want to buy at the end of the day no matter what the makers say.
.

This 100%. I think at this point in the discussion, lines have been drawn and our biases are pretty clear. The original point of this thread was to discuss the impact of "hype" on our buying behavior. I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus on whether brands of a certain price-point (ex. Himel) are over-hyped or properly-hyped, but that's the whole reason these forums exist. Let the customer due his own due diligence and then decide!

 

[red devil]

Also, just saying "Japanese makers" is a quite reductive in my opinion. I have handled quite a few Japanese leather jackets and they are not all the same by any means. Tenjin Works jackets are as different from RMC to me as Good Wear is to Aero. They do not all use the exact same methods, can have vastly different stitch counts, and are made in many different places.

That is one thing I wanted to mention but didn't get around, quoted for truth.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

This 100%. I think at this point in the discussion, lines have been drawn and our biases are pretty clear. The original point of this thread was to discuss the impact of "hype" on our buying behavior. I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus on whether brands of a certain price-point (ex. Himel) are over-hyped or properly-hyped, but that's the whole reason these forums exist. Let the customer due his own due diligence and then decide!

Yup! Our biases are strong, but I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with that. It's nice to have options to choose from. Even brands of lower price point can be hyped or over-hyped as well. It's not all about price point.

@Superfluous I will have a Field Leathers jacket fairly soon so I can do some direct comparing. Trust me, I am very excited to do so. I will be looking at my jacket very closely and I'm excited to see how it differs from my other jackets, particularly my beloved Freewheelers jackets.

If I am not mistaken, @Carlos840 will be getting one soon as well.

 

[Peacoat]

We have been watching this thread for awhile now. Everyone has had his or her say, and only repetition will result with a slide into negativity. Time to put it to rest.