Ebay Hats: Victories, Defeats, Gripes & Items of Interest

[Dreispitz]

No one feature can ever be used effectively to date a hat. Elements that can help date a hat include

Sweatband:
-Reeded vs. Unreeded
- Type of reeding used
-Type of stitching and fineness of stitching used on the sweatband
- texture of the leather used on the sweatband
-width of the sweatband
- embossing on the edges of the sweatband
- depth, clarity, style and color of markings on the sweatband
- taped vs. sewn rear seam

Liner
-Material used for the liner
-presence/absence of a guard over the center section of the liner
- material used if that guard is present
- pleated vs. non
- typeface and style of logo
-color of liner

- style of size tag
-style of bow at the rear of the sweatband

Styling
-Amount of taper
-Amount of curl in the brim
-crown height
- blocking
-hand creased vs. machine creased
- brim width
- ribbon width
- bow style

Miscellaneous
- Price vs. quality of the hat
- model name (if marked)
- how hat fits chronologically with other examples of the manufacturer
- research the store it was bought at
-research addresses on the sweatband - factory moves, store moves
- country of manufacture. Certain elements of style changed at different points different places
- style of hat vs. trimmings of said style.

Hi Dinerman,

very good compilation of features!

Cheers!

 

[buler]

No one feature can ever be used effectively to date a hat. Elements that can help date a hat include

Sweatband:
-Reeded vs. Unreeded
- Type of reeding used
-Type of stitching and fineness of stitching used on the sweatband
- texture of the leather used on the sweatband
-width of the sweatband
- embossing on the edges of the sweatband
- depth, clarity, style and color of markings on the sweatband
- taped vs. sewn rear seam

Liner
-Material used for the liner
-presence/absence of a guard over the center section of the liner
- material used if that guard is present
- pleated vs. non
- typeface and style of logo
-color of liner

- style of size tag
-style of bow at the rear of the sweatband

Styling
-Amount of taper
-Amount of curl in the brim
-crown height
- blocking
-hand creased vs. machine creased
- brim width
- ribbon width
- bow style

Miscellaneous
- Price vs. quality of the hat
- model name (if marked)
- how hat fits chronologically with other examples of the manufacturer
- research the store it was bought at
-research addresses on the sweatband - factory moves, store moves
- country of manufacture. Certain elements of style changed at different points different places
- style of hat vs. trimmings of said style.

Dinerman, great list! Thanks for that.
Just curious if an embroidered liner emblem helps date a hat?

B

 

[Brad Bowers]

Brad, there is nothing left to contradict from my side to your carefully deduced and substantiated argumentation.

I have meanwhile checked the few US hats, I own. Indeed, the post 1930ies ones are stitched, without aditional taping.

It is interesting, that there were and are obvious differences between European and US hatmaking, when it comes to specific details. Well, now I know one decicive feature to look at, when it comes to dating pre 1930ies US hat :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Don't acquiesce now, Dreispitz! I was enjoying this debate. We don't get too many reasonable debates around here very often, particularly about hat history.

I know very little about European hat manufacturing, so I couldn't even begin to date them, but those differences explain where we're both coming from.


Brad

 

[Marc Chevalier]

We don't get too many reasonable debates around here very often, particularly about hat history.

Not anymore.


.

 

[Dreispitz]

Don't acquiesce now, Dreispitz! I was enjoying this debate. We don't get too many reasonable debates around here very often, particularly about hat history.

I know very little about European hat manufacturing, so I couldn't even begin to date them, but those differences explain where we're both coming from.


Brad

Brad,

European hat history is a large topic, indeed. One can find European hat references dating back to 3500 b.c., early stone age, south of Germany! Felting was known 8000 b.c! There are finds of stone age proto Panama straw hats Must have been quite fashionable, back then.

By the way, we have clarified that the taping of US fedoras seized in the 30ies in favor of sewing. What about sewen joints before the 1930ies?

In other words, is a sewen sweatband joint a definite after 1930ies indication? :eusa_doh:

What about non industrial scale US pre and post 1930ies hatters, that did a lot of their work by hand?

Dreispitz

 

[Brad Bowers]

By the way, we have clarified that the taping of US fedoras seized in the 30ies in favor of sewing. What about sewen joints before the 1930ies?

In other words, is a sewen sweatband joint a definite after 1930ies indication? :eusa_doh:

What about non industrial scale US pre and post 1930ies hatters, that did a lot of their work by hand?

Dreispitz

Good questions, Dreispitz, and possibly no way of knowing the answers. Large manufacturers are easier to determine, precisely because of generality and scale. But for the small-time hatter, who knows? Could they afford these machines, and did they buy them?

It's always possible some picked up surplus adhesive sweatband machines and used them. Did some stitch them prior to the mid- to late-'30s? If they did them by hand, sure, they probably did. Did the large manufacturers stitch before then? Doesn't appear that they did, at least not in large quantities. Maybe there were special instances where they did.

Our problem comes down to evidence. How many of these off-brand hats were private labels made by the large manfacturers, and how many were made by hand by a small-time hatter? That's the million dollar question.

Personally, I believe that there were very few small-time, local hatters by the time the 1920s rolled around, as most major manufacturers had developed extensive national marketing networks and advertising, something they hadn't done prior to about 1903. The major brands were available nationwide, in department stores, haberdasheries, and hat stores across the country, even in mail order catalogs, so these smaller hatters might have turned to restoration and renovation, but perhaps few custom-made hats.

Pueblo, for instance, the second largest city in Colorado in 1930, didn't have a local hatter listed in the city directory. Hats were bought at the local department store. This might hold true nationwide. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Brad

 

[Lefty]

I'm going to condense and print this info., because it's quickly going to get lost in this thread.

On a different note, Stetson 100 case - no insert

 

[jimmy the lid]

I'm going to condense and print this info., because it's quickly going to get lost in this thread.

Perhaps it should all be added to this thread on taped sweats. In any event, I agree that this info shouldn't stay buried in this thread.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Lefty]

That looks good for much of it.

I'm also interested in many of the other characteristics of dating that are mentioned above, and which fall outside of the taped sweat. While they may have been mentioned in other contexts (draw-sting remains), things like the little back bow (I don't even know if it has a proper name) have never really been discussed (to my knowledge) in terms of dating a hat. This is true of quite a few on the list. With this whole new list of factors to which I hadn't previously given much thought, I've got plenty of searches to run.

 

[Lefty]

Dobbs not-that-there's-anything-wrong-with-that Prince

 

[DoctorJ]

HABIG WIEN STUTTGART 7 1/4

My Habig Arrived a few days ago, and I am quite pleased! This is the widest brimmed hat I own, and I'm liking it more everyday--especially after seeing myself in the photo.

Only one sad drawback: The sweatband disintegrated the very first time i checked under it--crumbled away like old parchment. Anyone have suggestions on where i can get a replacement sweatband?

I know about hatsupplydot.com, but are ther other options? Does anyone sell vintage parts from ruined hats? Just a thought.

Despite that...this hat is great--especially for $20!

P.S. Based on the tag, It looks like it's from 1951...and the sweatband seam was stitched and taped in the back. The stitching was ironically the only part of the band that stayed perfectly intact.

 

[Lefty]

That ribbon is great - as is the entire hat! :eusa_clap
I don't know the best place to get a sweat, but you could send the hat to Optimo to have one installed. Being in Washington, you might also contact Tonyb.

 

[jimmy the lid]

That ribbon is great - as is the entire hat! :eusa_clap

:arated: Very nice, DoctorJ.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

Dobbs not-that-there's-anything-wrong-with-that Prince

And for all you trivia buffs out there -- who can name Stetson's version of the Gay Prince?

The "Tijuana" (1950)...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[J.T.Marcus]

And for all you trivia buffs out there -- who can name Stetson's version of the Gay Prince?

The "Tijuana" (1950)...

Cheers,
JtL

I 've got the Mallory version. What was it called?

 

[Michaelshane]

I have the Mallory also...It just says Mallory ten.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

And for all you trivia buffs out there -- who can name Stetson's version of the Gay Prince?

The "Tijuana" (1950)...

I've got the Mallory version. What was it called?

Why, the "Mallorijuana", of course.

.

 

[mayserwegener]

Only one sad drawback: The sweatband disintegrated the very first time i checked under it--crumbled away like old parchment. Anyone have suggestions on where i can get a replacement sweatband?

I know about hatsupplydot.com, but are ther other options? Does anyone sell vintage parts from ruined hats? Just a thought.

Despite that...this hat is great--especially for $20!

P.S. Based on the tag, It looks like it's from 1951...and the sweatband seam was stitched and taped in the back. The stitching was ironically the only part of the band that stayed perfectly intact.

I think you are right about the date. I have a good number of Habigs and the labeling remains consistent into the 1970s.

All mine from the 1950s and 60s have liners + Ventilo and look similar to this 1952 sweat (assuming the last number is the year).

Here is a label from a different hat.

Can you take a couple of close-ups of the sweat?

BTW the Habigs made for the American market usually have Vienna vs. Wein.

 

[billyspew]

I 've got the Mallory version. What was it called?

And i have he Champ version...

Bill

 

[DoctorJ]

Reply to mayserwegener Re: Habig

I think you are right about the date. I have a good number of Habigs and the labeling remains consistent into the 1970s.

All mine from the 1950s and 60s have liners + Ventilo and look similar to this 1952 sweat (assuming the last number is the year).

Here is a label from a different hat.

Can you take a couple of close-ups of the sweat?

BTW the Habigs made for the American market usually have Vienna vs. Wein.

This is what I could piece together of the sweatband. The stitching shows the reverse side so you can see the backing tape.