Ebay Hats: Victories, Defeats, Gripes & Items of Interest

[Gilgamark]

Beautiful Adam G-Mark. I can select the size the pic will be before I upload to Photobucket. What a BIN pick up for you.

Thanks. I'll pick a smaller size from here on. :eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[jimmy the lid]

Here's the Adam I won on a buy-it-now earlier this week. The lining just reads "Adam," but the sweatband reads "Executive Quality." Is this an Adam Executive?

The hat is in great shape. Slight yellowing in the liner. That's it. It was dusty, but a good brushing took care of that. The photos don't quite get the color. It's a cinnamon brown.

Any tips on dating an Adam? I've read on other threads that they were a major brand of the 40's and 50's. When did they go out of business? This hat came in it's original box - sale price: $8.95.

That hat looks great on you, Gilgamark -- Congrats! :eusa_clap "Executive" is a quality designation for Adam -- not a model name -- so your lid is "Executive Quality". That particular quality was high end for Adam, and was designed to be competitive with the entry level Stetsons of the day. It's a very nice lid. Pricing on that hat probably puts it in the 50's.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Belegnole]

Nice looking lid, I always have liked that type of ribbon treatment.
Oh, you also have a long winded PM.....lol

 

[jonbuilder]

Resistrol thin ribbon

Just won this Resistrol OR type for $1 less than my snip amount
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130297444488

 

[carter]

jonbuilder, That is a terrific Resistol! Well done and congratulations! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Lefty]

Nice buys, fellas. The seller of the Resistol also had this beauty by Hadley

This seller seemed to emphasize the Dobbs box more than the Borso that it came with

 

[Gilgamark]

This seller seemed to emphasize the Dobbs box more than the Borso that it came with

I noticed that. Interesting. Too bad that Borsalino wasn't my size.

 

[MattJH]

So, this auction ended at like 7:00am EDT Saturday morning, so I threw in my maximum bid around 7:00pm Friday and figured for sure that I'd be outbid, but I wasn't, to my surprise. It's not often you see a Resistol fedora, let alone in a 7 3/4 size, and even then with the original box. Pretty cool:

It's a very stingy 1.5", so if it doesn't work out for me, I'll just relist it (or if you're interested, let me know, just in case).

 

[ScottF]

I noticed that. Interesting. Too bad that Borsalino wasn't my size.

I just received a very nice Dobbs in the mail, so this box will be perfect for it.

Wait...it comes with a Borsalino that's my size? Bonus..

 

[ScottF]

Here's the Dobbs that arrived yesterday - it's a much nicer color than the ebay pics showed. The seller described it as 'dark taupe', but it's a very nice chocolate brown, very close to the pic with it on my head. Re-bashed, I'm extremely pleased with it.

Dobbs on ebay

 

[Charlie Huang]

Grrr! I lost my bid for this vintage leather top hat bucket!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=320353941938

It also has the original key as well!

*sobs*

 

[Dreispitz]

Professor Bowers' class in Sweatband Technology is in session.



Which brands? Are we talking American manufacture, or European? Most American companies switched over in the 1930s (see below).



A machine to paste the fabric, joining the sweatband ends, was invented in 1892, and speeded up production over the next few decades.

The question is, why did companies switch over to sewn sweatbands? This would perhaps require a capital investment in new machines for this purpose, and would have to demonstrate a lower manufacturing cost over the old method to make it worth their while. Most companies appeared to have made the switch around the same time, in the 1930s, probably as a cost saving measure during the Great Depression. It might have required new machines, unless they were able to adapt existing machines for the purpose, but their other sewing machines were highly specialized, so I don't think they adapted. But they could lower their manufacturing cost, because the only thing in the way of supplies they needed was thread, and they were buying that already. With the old method, they had to buy the adhesive fabric, which I imagine cost substantially more than mere thread. Instant cost savings there.

This could be a holdover hat, made by a company that continued the old methods, but I suspect it was made by Mallory or one of the other large companies in Danbury, which means, they most likely would have followed the rest of the hat industry in making the switch. Too, note the pleated liner, a manufacturing extravangance that also disappeared, for the most part, during the Depression.



Gluing an upright size tag to the back of the sweatbands like that goes back at least as far as the late-nineteenth century, if not earlier, so that's nothing new by the 1930s. As far as the color and typeface, I don't see anything about it that rules it out as being an earlier tag. We'll just have to wait and see when the hat arrives.

I must now admit my previous ignorance to tape-and-reed history. Apparently, the use of tape (called reed cover or reed cloth in the old days) and reed goes back at least as far as the 1870s, I've discovered. The hats that I thought didn't have any, actually DO have reed cloth and reed. I checked my pre-1909 C&K Derby and my mid-'20s Dobbs, and both have them. It's just that the reed is situated so far back under the leather that it appears to not be there at all at first glance.

But the question now is, why did they switch to a style where the reed cover and reed is so much more prominent, and sewn on with a different style of stitching, which required a different sewing machine? Where is the cost savinds in that move?[huh] I'm still working on that one.

Class dismissed.lol

Brad

Thank you Brad, Dinerman and everybody else for the enlightenment!

Another reason for the replacement of glueing by sweing may have been the increasing number of soft felt hats. There is not much stress impact on the sweatband joint of a stiff hat like a Bowler or Top Hat. Soft felt hats are more prone to expansion, shrinkage, torsion etc., which might have been the reason to call for a more flexible connection.

The presence of glued joints in later Bowlers would support this theory.

This leads to the costcutting argument:

I do not think that a shortage or high price of glue lead hatters to favorise the more work intense sewing method, that was often carried out by hand. In the preiod glue in form of cellulose and protein were cheap and omnipresent. Was adhesive fabric used on a wide scale? Most early hats, I handeled had glued paper joints, sometimes fabric.

European hats:

I checked the joints of my European hats. It was oviously common to use both, stitching and gluing paper or cloth over the stitching of fedoras and Homburgs, up to present production lines. I also found a 70ies Barbisio short brim that has got a only taped joint - the lining, too, is glued in. :rage:

How about US productions? Do you also come across this tape + sew approach?


Right, the inicial question was: is it not exposed to risk to date a fedora hat by the absence of a sewed back joint pre 1930ies?

Videtur quod non:

It appears that glued back joints have disappeared in hatmaking by the 1930ies. This was due to the replacement of the more cost intense gluing process and the investment in new specialised sewing machinery.

Sed contra:

Sewing is more labour intense than glueing, even, if not done by hand. Most hats, until today, feature a glued and sewn back joint. Only glued joints are present in stiff hats and some retro frdora specimen from various decades.

Responeo an ergo:

The aditional sewing of sweatband back joints came in, in the 1930ies, when the amount of soft felt hats increased. This was due to provide more strength to the joint. Sewn and/or taped joints can be found through all the decades up, until now.

Therefore, it is not safe to date a hat pre 1930ies by only loocking at the sweatband joint.

Quod erat demonstrandum

Now, it is interesting to find the other features and properties, that make a time estimate safe? What are the distinctive properties of early hats, that can visually be recognised when we have no access to judge from the tactile qualities of a hat?

 

[cookie]

Latin Lives at FL - QED

Who said Latin was a dead language [huh] ...it is alive and living at the FL ...Hail mighty Caesar!

 

[Dreispitz]

Who said Latin was a dead language [huh] ...it is alive and living at the FL ...Hail mighty Caesar!

petasus interior tenia sudoris copula = sweatband joint lol

 

[jimmy the lid]

jonbuilder, That is a terrific Resistol! Well done and congratulations! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

:arated:

 

[jonbuilder]

Nice buys, fellas. The seller of the Resistol also had this beauty by Hadley

I notice the Hadley did a seach and the only thing that turn up were Lounge posts by are lovely HADLEYH

 

[Dinerman]

Now, it is interesting to find the other features and properties, that make a time estimate safe? What are the distinctive properties of early hats, that can visually be recognised when we have no access to judge from the tactile qualities of a hat?

No one feature can ever be used effectively to date a hat. Elements that can help date a hat include

Sweatband:
-Reeded vs. Unreeded
- Type of reeding used
-Type of stitching and fineness of stitching used on the sweatband
- texture of the leather used on the sweatband
-width of the sweatband
- embossing on the edges of the sweatband
- depth, clarity, style and color of markings on the sweatband
- taped vs. sewn rear seam

Liner
-Material used for the liner
-presence/absence of a guard over the center section of the liner
- material used if that guard is present
- pleated vs. non
- typeface and style of logo
-color of liner

- style of size tag
-style of bow at the rear of the sweatband

Styling
-Amount of taper
-Amount of curl in the brim
-crown height
- blocking
-hand creased vs. machine creased
- brim width
- ribbon width
- bow style

Miscellaneous
- Price vs. quality of the hat
- model name (if marked)
- how hat fits chronologically with other examples of the manufacturer
- research the store it was bought at
-research addresses on the sweatband - factory moves, store moves
- country of manufacture. Certain elements of style changed at different points different places
- style of hat vs. trimmings of said style.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Well put. :eusa_clap

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Brad Bowers]

I don't know Latin, but I'll respond anyway.

The presence of glued joints in later Bowlers would support this theory.

We may be talking the difference between American and European hats. American Derbies made the switch to a stitched seam in the '30s, just as with soft hats. As Dinerman said, Europeans didn't necessarily switch to the stitch at that time.

This leads to the costcutting argument:

I do not think that a shortage or high price of glue lead hatters to favorise the more work intense sewing method, that was often carried out by hand. In the preiod glue in form of cellulose and protein were cheap and omnipresent. Was adhesive fabric used on a wide scale? Most early hats, I handeled had glued paper joints, sometimes fabric.

I never said it was a shortage of glue. It's just that thread is, presumably, cheaper than fabric strips impregnated with adhesive. They were already buying thread in bulk, so the cost of additional thread is negligible.

It appears that glued back joints have disappeared in hatmaking by the 1930ies. This was due to the replacement of the more cost intense gluing process and the investment in new specialised sewing machinery.

Sed contra:

Sewing is more labour intense than glueing, even, if not done by hand. Most hats, until today, feature a glued and sewn back joint. Only glued joints are present in stiff hats and some retro frdora specimen from various decades.

Actually, sewing the rear seam with a machine probably takes the same amount of time or even less compared to the adhesive fabric method. In the old method, the operator had to clamp the ends of the sweat together, moisten the adhesive strip, operate the machine so the strip is adhered to the sweatband, remove the clamps, and cut off the end of the strip. Many steps involved in the process.

Responeo an ergo:

The aditional sewing of sweatband back joints came in, in the 1930ies, when the amount of soft felt hats increased. This was due to provide more strength to the joint. Sewn and/or taped joints can be found through all the decades up, until now.

Soft felt hats took off in popularity starting around 1906, and were the majority of hats by the 1920s, at least in America. Again, we may be talking the difference between American and European hats.

Therefore, it is not safe to date a hat pre 1930ies by only loocking at the sweatband joint.

For American hats, it is a safe assessment.

Brad

 

[Dreispitz]

....

Soft felt hats took off in popularity starting around 1906, and were the majority of hats by the 1920s, at least in America. Again, we may be talking the difference between American and European hats.


For American hats, it is a safe assessment.

Brad

Brad, there is nothing left to contradict from my side to your carefully deduced and substantiated argumentation.

I have meanwhile checked the few US hats, I own. Indeed, the post 1930ies ones are stitched, without aditional taping.

It is interesting, that there were and are obvious differences between European and US hatmaking, when it comes to specific details. Well, now I know one decicive feature to look at, when it comes to dating pre 1930ies US hat :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap