Crofut & Knapp Tales

[delectans]

Thanks, Brad, I appreciate your kind words as well as your invaluable input.

I had initially thought that, based upon the absence of the 'Knapp-Felt' designation, and the quite tall crown, that there was a possibility the hat pre-dated 1906. I did consider the possibility that it is in fact a post-1906 C & K line hat, but could not quite reconcile the crown height, especially when reviewing the 1910s example you showed earlier:

There are some similarities in the two derbys, in particular the store logo sticker in the crown, but sweatband details and the separate 'style' tag further led me to surmise that my hat may possibly be earlier.

The separate 'style' tag was also shown in another one of your wonderful early derbys, which possibly pre-dates the 'Knapp-Felt' line, this one also sans United Hatters stamp?:

In reviewing additional examples, it appears that Robert's incredible 1910s 'Knapp-Felt' derby bears a very similar tag to mine, and also lacks the United Hatters stamp:

Additionally, Alan's beautiful, ?1920s 'Knapp-Felt' derby bears a similar yet different style re-order tag:

 

[delectans]

Finally, I was drawn to the fantastic early ads Buler posted, noting in particular the very interesting crown dimensions given:

1898:

1902:

At any rate, I find these early C & K and 'Knapp-Felt' derbys to be utterly irresistable and fascinating, and the intellectual excercise in trying to assign approximate vintage intriguing and rewarding.

Thanks again, Brad!

 

[Joshbru3]

GORGEOUS Derby, AL!! It looks phenomenal on you!!

I did want to comment on the tall crown though. Through studying a bit of soft and stiff hat history, it seems that there was a bit of a phenomenon that occurred from about 1915-1918. There was a resurgence of tall crowns in both derbys and soft hats during this period and seems that this period was also the peek of crown heights in the 20th century. It wasn't uncommon during these years to see 6 1/4 open crowns on soft hats and as much as 5 3/4 open crowns on derbies. For the most part derbies didn't really reach the 6 - 6 1/4 open crowns of the late 1870's-1880's, but still reached good heights. I wouldn't be surprised if your derby dated from somewhere between those years.

 

[Brad Bowers]

As Josh pointed out, crown height isn't always an indicator of age, though brims and curls can help. Keep in mind that 1910s hat I posted is really small, so the crown would be proportionally shorter. The brown Derby I posted earlier does have a union label, I just didn't photograph it, so that places it 1909 or earlier. Early C&K hats with union labels will date between the mid-1890s and 1909. Did you check to see if your hat has one? Robert's hat above is from 1913 or later, since it has a Cavanagh Edge, and thus, no union label. Alan's Derby is 1920s or even 1930s, because of the out-of-patent Bon-Ton Sweatband.

You're right, it is quite the fun intellectual exercise to try to figure out age. The more we see, the more we learn, and can begin to get more accurate!

Brad

 

[delectans]

Many thanks, Josh, for your kind words and studied observations.

As we have seen countless times in soft hats, attempting to estimate vintage accurately based upon style is a hit-and-miss proposition at best, and is not at all reliable. Fashion tastes are fickle and tend to be cyclical in nature, certainly, and I think that your comments are well substantiated.

I wish we have more objective means to evaluate the chronological sequence of the early C & K hats based upon liner crest and sweatband details, as we have with Stetson, Mallory, and Cavanagh, and later C & K production. Unfortunately, however, it seems we are left with only some dates for model/product line introductions and the presence or absence of the Union Hatter stamp to make our best assessment.

Perhaps someone can shed light on just how reliable the United Hatters stamp is at helping to refine a date attribution? Were ALL hats manufactured between 1896 and 1909 union made?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Perhaps someone can shed light on just how reliable the Union Hatter stamp is at helping to refine a date attribution? Were ALL hats manufactured between 1896 and 1909 union made?

Those years only hold true for the C&K factory, as that's when it was a closed shop. The union was kicked out of the factory in 1909. Other manufacturers will have different years.

Brad

 

[alanfgag]

When I think of tall derbies I think of this one in the photo of the owner of my C&K top hat. This must be somewhere in the vicinity of his 1915 wedding. I wonder if it was also a C&K hat?

 

[delectans]

My thanks once again, Brad. I was working on my reply to Josh's post and did not see your earlier post before submitting mine.

I do not think my derby has a United Hatters stamp. I looked again last night, but due to the age of the hat and the fragile nature of the sweatband leather and sewing, did not completely evert the sweatband to look. Fairly certain it is not present.

So we have historical documentation that C & K ran a closed, union operation from 1896, when the United Hatters formed as an amalgamation of two preceding organizations, until 1909, when the union was ousted? This is I think de facto evidence for reliable date attribution, barring any other circumstances such as post-production loss or purposeful removal of the stamp.

To my way of thinking, a hat bearing the United Hatters stamp can be reliably dated to the period 1896-1909, but those that do not cannot be definitively ruled out as dating from the same period based upon absence of the stamp alone.

Alan, I think it likely that fine looking derby in the incredible portrait is a C & K. The man obviously had impeccable taste in attire and choice of headwear, as evidenced by his incredbly fine C & K top hat!

 

[newturnofphrase]

Submitting my humble chapter to the Crofut & Knapp Tales, a derby possibly dating to 1906 or earlier. Felt is of Summer weight and somewhat flexible, with a high, 5-1/2"+, rounded crown accentuated by a narrower ribbon. Quality trimmings all around, with a soft and supple sweatband, making for a very comfortable fit.

Ah yes, I saw this one on eBay a few weeks ago, seriously considered bidding, but decided if my collection gets much bigger my girlfriend might leave me. Beauty hat.

 

[delectans]

Ah yes, I saw this one on eBay a few weeks ago, seriously considered bidding, but decided if my collection gets much bigger my girlfriend might leave me. Beauty hat.

Thanks, and 'tis the one.

 

[delectans]

Crofut & Knapp Derby, 1910s

The second of two early C & K derbies from Minnesota that I acquired this past November. Fine quality felt, unlined, and in near mint condition, with just a hint of darkening to the forehead portion of the sweatband as well as an elaborate, stamped aluminum crest to indicate that it had been retailed and worn.

C & K crest in the crown features a very detailed depiction of the twelve signs of the Zodiac, and is of a design that probably pre-dates my other example. No United Hatters stamp present behind the sweatband, with separate re-order and size tags.


Crown: 5", as indicated and measured.
Ribbon: 1-1/16".
Brim: 2-1/8" fore and aft.
Sweatband: 1-7/8".

 

[delectans]

 

[alanfgag]

Wow! What an incredible crest. Heavenly.

 

[delectans]

Thanks, Alan, it is out-of-this-world.

 

[randooch]

Stunning details, beautifully photographed.

 

[delectans]

I appreciate your kind words, Randall.

 

[Chepstow]

That is a real beauty Al, I love it.

 

[delectans]

Thank you very much, Manfred, I am glad you like it.

 

[Joshbru3]

I don't know how you keep finding these remarkable C & K derbies, Al, but this one is by far my favorite. The sweatband grain and the depth of the stampings are absolutely superb. My favorite thing about this hat is how flat the flange and brim curl are. I remember reading something in the American Hatter publications about a flatter, more ironed curl, being a styling trend one year, but I can't remember the date. Awesome find!! :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[buler]

I don't know how you keep finding these remarkable C & K derbies, Al, but this one is by far my favorite. The sweatband grain and the depth of the stampings are absolutely superb. My favorite thing about this hat is how flat the flange and brim curl are. I remember reading something in the American Hatter publications about a flatter, more ironed curl, being a styling trend one year, but I can't remember the date. Awesome find!! :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

+1. Those pics are great to see. I've seen reference to an "orange peel" finish leather for sweatbands and I think yours looks the part.

B