Complete rip off of Lewis Leathers cyclone in Clutch cafe, London.

[Lit Up]

I like this one:
View attachment 140948

facsimile of LL Europa jacket.

 

[Pemulis]

Reading this thread I assume some of you guys really hate non-Schott Perfecto-style jackets, right?

 

[Lit Up]

"Perfecto style" jackets aren't all the same. The kind of cheap crap you see imported from china and sold in open air markets for £50 have not completely copied the pattern of a Schott Perfecto. Usually they have similar features: cigarette lighter pocket, epaulettes, belt etc and that's it.

What Addict have done is shamelessly copied the exact pattern of designs invented in living memory by a business still in existence, and done this over and over again because they can't be arsed to think of their own designs.

It's shameless. And a very poor take for Clutch.

 

[Pemulis]

I don't know. I've seen Perfecto jackets that are almost undistinghisable from a Schott. I've also seen jackets that are almost the same as some LL models with different degrees of quality and price.

I'm just not sure at which point a leather jacket, which comes in a limited series of styles and features can actually be considered a rip-off of another one.

It's not like Addict is trying to sell a fake LL, or a cheaper version. And someone on this thread said that it didin't seen to fit as good as a LL (if they copied the pattern, then they did a poor job with it, didin't they).

I'm just thinking out loud, I'm just not sure where one draws the line between copying styles and looks (something that every fashion brand does) and actually ripping off someone else's design.

 

[Edward]

Jesus, no! There are so not gray areas here it's not even funny. It cannot be any more black and white! They're making knock-offs! If the pattern belongs to LL and if Addict hasn't licensed it, what are we even talking about here? How can it be legit? Cyclone can only be made by LL. Period.

There are two separate issues here - moral considerations and legal ones. A lot of folks may consider this to be morally illegitimate because Addict (like several other companies) are reproducing (with varying degrees of exactittude) jackets still in production by the original maker, Lewis Leathers (let's not split hairs by getting technical re Lewis in effect being a reproducer themselves of jackets long out of production when the current owners took charge). Legally, however, Addict are completely within the law. Copyright law in the UK (similar to that in the USA and also throughout Europe, I believe) does not recognise anything directly protectable in clothing design, clothes being primarily considered utilitarian. In the EU, we do also have the concept of an Unregistered Design Right, protectable for up to 25 years. Of course, as these designs are all much older than that, this protection, primarily used for fashion garments, isn't much use where the design is a thirty or forty year old one for a motorcycle jacket. Lewis can protect their logo in trade mark. Also, should they come up with some revolutionary new textile or hardware that meets the standard of inventiveness required for patent, they could use that - but unless they create something really new and inventive (which is, frankly, unlikely; the last patent that revolutionised the basic leather jacket was the zip....), it's unlikely.

It's literally Aero / SB thing!

It's a very different situation. SB directly copied Aero's *patterns*, which can be copyrighted. The *design* of the jacket cannot be protected - had SB done what Addict. Leather Monkeys and such have done - take apart originals and reconstruct the designs using these to make their own patterns - they'd have been within the law.

LL is making the exact same Cyclone they've always been making, from the exact same pattern, with the exact same hardware. It's literally the exact same jacket they've been making since the 70's. Like, 0% difference.

Yes, so the Design Right (assuming we could retrospectively apply it) would have run out in the 90s.

The laws are even more free and easy in Japan, where Addict are based: essentially unless it's either a deliberate counterfeit or there's a likelihood that buyers won't know the difference between the original and the copy, it's fair game. There's quite a liberal interpretation of this in Japan, hence the sheer volume of legitimate 'lookalike' products on sale there that could be missed at first glance.

I can well understand how frustrating this sort of thing must be for Derek and the team at LL, but unfortunately that's how it goes. In any case, much like anyone can copy a Fender Stratocaster but only Fender can make a Fender Stratocaster, only Lewis can make a Lewis Leathers jacket. The LL label matters very much to their core market, so TM gives them some level of protection in that sense.

IMHO, this does not quite rise to the level of SB/AL's conduct. According to the accounts I read, SB/AL used actual patterns misappropriated by Will Lauder from Aero. Addict did not steal LL's pattern and, while they likely reverse engineered the jacket, that is one step less egregious than outright stealing the pattern from the originator.

This is correct. Put bluntly, Addict have copied designs by Lewis without infringing Lewis Leathers' TMs or any design right (because there is no protectable design right at this point).

Reading this thread I assume some of you guys really hate non-Schott Perfecto-style jackets, right?

I see where you're going with that, but Schott's claim to have invented the style they dub the Perfecto is somewhat spurious.

 

[Edward]

"Perfecto style" jackets aren't all the same. The kind of cheap crap you see imported from china and sold in open air markets for £50 have not completely copied the pattern of a Schott Perfecto. Usually they have similar features: cigarette lighter pocket, epaulettes, belt etc and that's it.

And the jury's still out on whether Schott really did invent that style anyhow. Their long-running claim to have made Brando's jacket, for instance, is largely based on the fact that they later bought Durable, the most likely manufacturer of the original.

What Addict have done is shamelessly copied the exact pattern of designs invented in living memory by a business still in existence, and done this over and over again because they can't be arsed to think of their own designs.

It's shameless. And a very poor take for Clutch.

Whatever the moral/ ethical stance one wishes to take, let's be very careful how we put this, as this statement could be interpreted as libellous. What Addict seem to have done is take apart original jackets and copy them (possibly with some modifications to the pattern as they choose), but this is not the same thing as copying *the Lewis patterns* directly (assuming any Lewis patterns were still in copyright - which they wouldn't be, at over 25 years old).

I'm just not sure at which point a leather jacket, which comes in a limited series of styles and features can actually be considered a rip-off of another one.

That, of course, could be an issue in EU design law, which requires a 'unique character'.

I'm just thinking out loud, I'm just not sure where one draws the line between copying styles and looks (something that every fashion brand does) and actually ripping off someone else's design.

It'san incredibly grey area, imo - and largely down to personal opinion in this specific instance.

 

[Lit Up]

The only people I can see buying an Addict copy of a Lewis jacket in London are people who are ignorant. Why would anybody buy a boxy generic cut which is no better in quality (in fact worse with the matte hardware) for double or triple the price of a made to measure version at Lewis Leathers in a variety of choices of hide - horse, cow, sheep... and customisation options of either stripes down the sleeves or bands across them etc. It's just a really bad option and I hate how Clutch hope to catch the ignorant purchaser for a sale. Clutch stock Tenjin Works which I think is a much better offering because whilst it's hideously expensive compared to a Lewis jacket, at least they are making their own jackets rather than copying others.

 

[red devil]

The only people I can see buying an Addict copy of a Lewis jacket in London are people who are ignorant. Why would anybody buy a boxy generic cut which is no better in quality (in fact worse with the matte hardware) for double or triple the price of a made to measure version at Lewis Leathers in a variety of choices of hide - horse, cow, sheep... and customisation options of either stripes down the sleeves or bands across them etc. It's just a really bad option and I hate how Clutch hope to catch the ignorant purchaser for a sale. Clutch stock Tenjin Works which I think is a much better offering because whilst it's hideously expensive compared to a Lewis jacket, at least they are making their own jackets rather than copying others.

How much were the Tenjin going for at Clutch?

 

[Lit Up]

I wasn't entirely clear; I think it's around £2,000 but could be more. I'm not sure if £2,000 is the full price or just the deposit. A deposit is taken and then the jacket is made. But I think the least you have to spend for one is £2,000. It's just not something I would spend on a jacket of any description.

 

[red devil]

I wasn't entirely clear; I think it's around £2,000 but could be more. I'm not sure if £2,000 is the full price or just the deposit. A deposit is taken and then the jacket is made. But I think the least you have to spend for one is £2,000. It's just not something I would spend on a jacket of any description.

Their tan cafe racer costs ¥135000 (about £921) and their D pocket ¥165000 (about £1129), does this sound more reasonable to you?
Prices in the UK for Japanese jackets are not representative

Edit: repeating myself on this, but I would almost never buy a Japanese jacket from UK retailers. their up-charge has been completely ridiculous so far

 

[Lit Up]

Prices in the UK for Japanese jackets are not representative

we have to pay import duties and VAT on top.

I personally would not pay anything more than for a new Lewis and it would have to be made to measure. Fortunately I live within walking distance of Lewis so I can go in and out casually and get measured up. I can also go to Aero but it's not that accessible being all the way up north. Eastman have a pop up in London soon and I will check out their stock. I would ask to be measured up for custom in any case, should there be something there I like the look of.

 

[red devil]

we have to pay import duties and VAT on top.

Exactly, hence UK not being representative as stated.
The VAT in Japan is 8% if I am not mistaken, so if you buy the cafe racer in Japan you would end up paying about £996. This is the representative price.
Same goes for US jackets, the UK price for Schott for example is not representative.

And you do get measured up for a Tenjin, similar to Aero, they adjust the pattern to fit (I own one of their jacket, bought directly in Tokyo).

Eastman is more expensive than Lewis, so how is that even something you would consider?

 

[Monitor]

There are two separate issues here - moral considerations and legal ones. A lot of folks may consider this to be morally illegitimate because Addict (like several other companies) are reproducing (with varying degrees of exactittude) jackets still in production by the original maker, Lewis Leathers (let's not split hairs by getting technical re Lewis in effect being a reproducer themselves of jackets long out of production when the current owners took charge). Legally, however, Addict are completely within the law. Copyright law in the UK (similar to that in the USA and also throughout Europe, I believe) does not recognise anything directly protectable in clothing design, clothes being primarily considered utilitarian. In the EU, we do also have the concept of an Unregistered Design Right, protectable for up to 25 years. Of course, as these designs are all much older than that, this protection, primarily used for fashion garments, isn't much use where the design is a thirty or forty year old one for a motorcycle jacket. Lewis can protect their logo in trade mark. Also, should they come up with some revolutionary new textile or hardware that meets the standard of inventiveness required for patent, they could use that - but unless they create something really new and inventive (which is, frankly, unlikely; the last patent that revolutionised the basic leather jacket was the zip....), it's unlikely.




It's a very different situation. SB directly copied Aero's *patterns*, which can be copyrighted. The *design* of the jacket cannot be protected - had SB done what Addict. Leather Monkeys and such have done - take apart originals and reconstruct the designs using these to make their own patterns - they'd have been within the law.



Yes, so the Design Right (assuming we could retrospectively apply it) would have run out in the 90s.

The laws are even more free and easy in Japan, where Addict are based: essentially unless it's either a deliberate counterfeit or there's a likelihood that buyers won't know the difference between the original and the copy, it's fair game. There's quite a liberal interpretation of this in Japan, hence the sheer volume of legitimate 'lookalike' products on sale there that could be missed at first glance.

I can well understand how frustrating this sort of thing must be for Derek and the team at LL, but unfortunately that's how it goes. In any case, much like anyone can copy a Fender Stratocaster but only Fender can make a Fender Stratocaster, only Lewis can make a Lewis Leathers jacket. The LL label matters very much to their core market, so TM gives them some level of protection in that sense.




This is correct. Put bluntly, Addict have copied designs by Lewis without infringing Lewis Leathers' TMs or any design right (because there is no protectable design right at this point).



I see where you're going with that, but Schott's claim to have invented the style they dub the Perfecto is somewhat spurious.

That was a really interesting read, Edward!

But yeah, you're correct. I was speaking strictly from a moral standpoint. I also have automatically assumed that LL has trademarked their IP in some way. Haven't had a clue about any of that legal stuff, how the copyright law recognizes only the pattern and not the design as a protected IP nor that it can run out. That's some crazy stuff... Especially since it's well known that LL did come up with the design for most of their jackets.

That would explain why Japanese makers are able to get away with all the LL knock-offs they're constantly producing.

 

[Justhandguns]

Very interesting thread indeed. I always want to visit the Clutch Store in London, and now I am even more interested because of all these Addict collections being sold there. Regardless of all the copyright (morally or legally), Addict jackets are not intended to be sold outside of Japan anyway. Somebody has already mentioned that they are supposedly to be a more affordable option for the local Japanese market, hence the cut is very different and designed mainly for Asian built buyers.

Honestly, the Clutch group from Japan should have a close tide with Lewis as they do include a lot off Lewis jackets in their magazines (as well as advertisements), I am not even sure what their marketing dept or buyers are doing. Clutch and Lewis are pretty much targeting the same group of buyers but I guess there are also fashion chasers and fans of Japan products around to fill the gap. I am sure quite a number of people who shop in the Clutch shop would not know the existence of Lewis shop just within walking distance in London.

The jacket on show in the first page looks like a hybrid of a LL Cyclone and the Wolverine jacket in the X-men movies. Not my cup of tea anyway.

 

[Winthorpe]

I had the chance to visit the Addict Clothes store in Tokyo last summer and talk to their owner, Satoshi Ishijima. Long before making his own jackets he was importing British Vintage motorcycle jackets to Japan, which he then sold out of his Tokyo store. Even today he still imports and sells British Vintage jackets.

At some point he also started importing and fixing up British Vintage motorcycles, mainly pre-war models. Many of those bikes are available for sale at his store. Everyone at the store rides a British Vintage motorcycle to work, they are parked in front of the store.

He is someone who just absolutely loves everything about British Vintage motorcycling. You can feel that passion when you talk to him. It’s genuine and the reason why he is doing this.

Satoshi and Derek Harris know each other and have met many times in London as well as Tokyo. At one point back in 2008 Derek even visited Satoshi’s shop in Tokyo:

http://addict-clothes.com/apparel-blog/vintage-jacket/1798

To be fair, that was before Satoshi started marking his own jackets. I have no idea what their current relationship is like.

At some point Satoshi realized that the amount of quality Vintage jackets was drying up. Jackets in great condition became harder to find and with that prices went up too. At that point he started to think about making his own jackets utilizing Japanese tanneries, Japanese cloth and hardware.

What he set out to do was to replicate the look and feel of the Vintage jackets that he was selling, which lead to their label “Addict Clothes - New Vintage”. He worked with Japanese tanneries to get the hides tanned to his specifications. The sheepskin he uses is a tea core leather with a brown core. It ages beautifully as can be seen in his personal AD-10. The hardware he uses is all custom made for an aged appearance trying to emulate how Vintage hardware looks like. Even the zipper tape has a bit of a faded appearance.

I feel what he does is an homage to Vintage Lewis Leathers, Barbour and Belstaff jackets. What impressed me the most is that he is doing it with a very high level of quality in terms of materials and craftsmanship. From what I’ve seen it is well on par with the other Japanese high-end leather jacket makers.

Personally, I think the offerings of Lewis Leathers and Addict Clothes complement each other. For someone like the OP a Lewis Leathers jacket makes more sense as it is the real deal, priced well in his location, can be customized and has shiny hardware. Others who value high-end Japanese materials and craftsmanship combined with the Vintage approach Addict Clothes took their offering would be the better choice.

 

[Bullitt]

Inspiring discussion. Was thinking about fakes, rip-offs, copies, re-productions, inspirations, homages…
Very often it is a is a fine line between the categories. In the end, the owner of the original design has to decide how he feels about an other company copying their work.

It reminds me of Japanese denim labels that copy classic American jeans cuts, with a high level of detail, using material of better quality than the original and therefore charging a premium price.

For the consumer, this is good. One can buy the original, or pay a bit more for a higher quality version.

 

[Edward]

The big difference with the Levis stuff, of course, is that afaik Levis weren't actively producing their LVC line when companies in Japan started doing so - as I understand it, LVC was Levi's reaction to the Japanese companies showing that there was a market for this stuff (in much the same way that, at the other end of the scale, Tokai once proved there was a market for cheaper Fender-style guitars built outside the USA - albeit that those 'budget' models were often better built than the real thing by 1980).

That was a really interesting read, Edward!

But yeah, you're correct. I was speaking strictly from a moral standpoint. I also have automatically assumed that LL has trademarked their IP in some way. Haven't had a clue about any of that legal stuff, how the copyright law recognizes only the pattern and not the design as a protected IP nor that it can run out. That's some crazy stuff... Especially since it's well known that LL did come up with the design for most of their jackets.

That would explain why Japanese makers are able to get away with all the LL knock-offs they're constantly producing.

Japan's IP laws are much more liberal than in either Europe or the US, hence many more of these 'homage' brands which we don't see outside Japan.

Very interesting thread indeed. I always want to visit the Clutch Store in London, and now I am even more interested because of all these Addict collections being sold there. Regardless of all the copyright (morally or legally), Addict jackets are not intended to be sold outside of Japan anyway. Somebody has already mentioned that they are supposedly to be a more affordable option for the local Japanese market, hence the cut is very different and designed mainly for Asian built buyers.

Honestly, the Clutch group from Japan should have a close tide with Lewis as they do include a lot off Lewis jackets in their magazines (as well as advertisements), I am not even sure what their marketing dept or buyers are doing. Clutch and Lewis are pretty much targeting the same group of buyers but I guess there are also fashion chasers and fans of Japan products around to fill the gap. I am sure quite a number of people who shop in the Clutch shop would not know the existence of Lewis shop just within walking distance in London.

The jacket on show in the first page looks like a hybrid of a LL Cyclone and the Wolverine jacket in the X-men movies. Not my cup of tea anyway.

I'd be surprised if anyone turned on enough to the Japanese brands to track down Clutch was unaware of Addict's inspiration... There is, however, a niche market or those who do want something really exclusive, or who do in particular seek out Japanese stuff. Where once a certain market sector fetishised 'Made in USA' as a magical guarantor of quality, it seems that 'made in Japan' has now taken over this market.

I had the chance to visit the Addict Clothes store in Tokyo last summer and talk to their owner, Satoshi Ishijima. Long before making his own jackets he was importing British Vintage motorcycle jackets to Japan, which he then sold out of his Tokyo store. Even today he still imports and sells British Vintage jackets.

At some point he also started importing and fixing up British Vintage motorcycles, mainly pre-war models. Many of those bikes are available for sale at his store. Everyone at the store rides a British Vintage motorcycle to work, they are parked in front of the store.

He is someone who just absolutely loves everything about British Vintage motorcycling. You can feel that passion when you talk to him. It’s genuine and the reason why he is doing this.

Satoshi and Derek Harris know each other and have met many times in London as well as Tokyo. At one point back in 2008 Derek even visited Satoshi’s shop in Tokyo:

http://addict-clothes.com/apparel-blog/vintage-jacket/1798

To be fair, that was before Satoshi started marking his own jackets. I have no idea what their current relationship is like.

At some point Satoshi realized that the amount of quality Vintage jackets was drying up. Jackets in great condition became harder to find and with that prices went up too. At that point he started to think about making his own jackets utilizing Japanese tanneries, Japanese cloth and hardware.

What he set out to do was to replicate the look and feel of the Vintage jackets that he was selling, which lead to their label “Addict Clothes - New Vintage”. He worked with Japanese tanneries to get the hides tanned to his specifications. The sheepskin he uses is a tea core leather with a brown core. It ages beautifully as can be seen in his personal AD-10. The hardware he uses is all custom made for an aged appearance trying to emulate how Vintage hardware looks like. Even the zipper tape has a bit of a faded appearance.

I feel what he does is an homage to Vintage Lewis Leathers, Barbour and Belstaff jackets. What impressed me the most is that he is doing it with a very high level of quality in terms of materials and craftsmanship. From what I’ve seen it is well on par with the other Japanese high-end leather jacket makers.

It's the classic trajectory. Many, many big names in repro started out dealing in vintage then gradually made their own as the stuff they were selling got harder to find, more expensive, demand increased for hard to find sizes and such.

Brit-style bike jackets have two key markets in Japan (as, indeed, do Lewis themselves more globally): those into the original late 50s/early 60s and British bikes of the period, and those into punk rock. While the leather jacket as punk rock staple was predominantly, in the UK, a second-wave punk thing (and even then has been vastly exaggerated since 1979), it was definitely a thing to some extent and a lot of the 'visible' leather jackets on the scene were distinctively Brit jackets. Those who could afford them, typically aping Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols or Mick and Joe of the Clash, had Lewises; often second hand jackets that had formerly belonged to Rockers now grown up and clearing out their old bits. Sid Vicious' most famous jacket, and the one that stuck with him for a much longer part of his short life, was not the Schott Perfecto he only adopted during the ill-fated 1978 tour of the USA, but an old, ex-rocker Lewis Dominator. (There's also a direct link via the Clash in that Paul Simonon grew up around motorcycles and in a rocker family; Bernie Rhodes also got them into something of the rocker look as an image - being that bit older, he'd kept tabs on and was familiar with just about every Brit youth culture since the Teds.) Even some Americans like Joey and Marky Ramone wore Lewis Lightnings at one time and another. Those Britpunks who couldn't afford Lewises wore other brands, like Mascot (The Damned; these also spread to Irish punk bands - The Undertones' Fearghal Sharkey wore a Mascot Black Night on the cover of their first album).

Notably, 'Addict' has a clear punk inspiration as a brand, referencing 'The Adicts'. I've also seen Japanese Lewis copies under the Vicious-referencing 'Mywayman' label (Cute; Highwayman was a brand that belonged to Rivett's of Leytonstone, a competitor to Lewis in its heyday, later bought out by Lewis who dropped the use of the name altogether, which left it free to eventually become Aero property as a TM. Rivett's were, under the Highwayman label, making the archetypal straight zip / shirt collar ton-up boy jacket by at least 1959; Lewis didn't introduce the Corsair and Dominator until 1962).

Personally, I think the offerings of Lewis Leathers and Addict Clothes complement each other. For someone like the OP a Lewis Leathers jacket makes more sense as it is the real deal, priced well in his location, can be customized and has shiny hardware. Others who value high-end Japanese materials and craftsmanship combined with the Vintage approach Addict Clothes took their offering would be the better choice.

In all honesty, I'd be extremely suprised if they could better the original in any way, though once one gets into that sort of price range, all sorts of intangibles such as brand and exclusivity start to play a major part. I'm sure in many ways they make much more sense in Japan for that portion of the market there who want to spend less than an actual Lewis will cost. Perhaps too there are people out there who want a Lewis without the Lewis brand, so....

 

[Blackadder]

That was a really interesting read, Edward!

But yeah, you're correct. I was speaking strictly from a moral standpoint. I also have automatically assumed that LL has trademarked their IP in some way. Haven't had a clue about any of that legal stuff, how the copyright law recognizes only the pattern and not the design as a protected IP nor that it can run out. That's some crazy stuff... Especially since it's well known that LL did come up with the design for most of their jackets.

That would explain why Japanese makers are able to get away with all the LL knock-offs they're constantly producing.

It is also well known now that the Dominator and the Corsair may not be an original design by LL and that they might have copied an existing design of a then existing British competitor. And the point about RRL being knock-offs of Levi's is being ignored.

 

[Bullitt]

The big difference with the Levis stuff, of course, is that afaik Levis weren't actively producing their LVC line when companies in Japan started doing so - as I understand it, LVC was Levi's reaction to the Japanese companies showing that there was a market for this stuff...

You are right.

I think the power equilibrium between the company that borrows/copies/steals a design and the originator is important too. A smaller company might have to close down when an other company steals their ideas and floods the market with copies. For Levis, it was probably quite good that smaller companies successfully sold higher quality versions of their old designs. With LVC as a reaction and later Made and Crafted, they entered new market segments.

Recently read about Vivienne Westwood, who stole a t-shirt design from other, less famous, designers. Quite like their reaction:

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/169...-bench-as-apology-for-copying-designers-work/

 

[dudewuttheheck]

This is a very interesting case. As many here know, I am a big fan of Japanese brands and love Japanese reproductions of classic jacket designs. The fact that Lewis Leathers is still making the same jacket does make it at least a moral grey area to my mind even if it is definitely not the same situation as Aero and Alexander Leathers at all as that is clearly a legal issue.

I personally would not be interested in buying the Addict models partly because I don't really like the Lewis Leathers originals, but also because I would generally prefer to buy the original when possible.

The Levi's angle is interesting. I own Conner's Sewing Factory jeans and adore them. These are copies of 1940's and earlier Levi's jeans. Obviously, these are not the same as modern Levi's, but why would I buy these when Levi's themselves also make some of these same reproductions themselves? Well, the fact is that the Conner's Sewing Factory versions are provably superior reproductions than Levi's own reproductions. In this case, I would not even call it a moral grey area. Firstly, Levi's stopped making these jeans years ago so their current versions are reproductions in the same way that the Conner's Sewing Factory models are. Additionally, if Levi's can't do as good of a job as the other company, I see no reason why I shouldn't go with the other company (in this case, a solo maker who has put an insane amount of effort and dedication into this project, all the way down to hand folding the seams and using only period correct sewing machines, measures that Levi's themselves do not take.)

This said, I have no idea if the situation is the same with LL and Addict. My guess is that it's not. I'm not defending Adddict. However, I am positing the idea that a reproduction from a separate company could be better than anything else currently available, even if it's made by the 'original' maker.