Lit Up
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 175
- Location
- London, UK
I like this one:
View attachment 140948
facsimile of LL Europa jacket.
I like this one:
View attachment 140948
Jesus, no! There are so not gray areas here it's not even funny. It cannot be any more black and white! They're making knock-offs! If the pattern belongs to LL and if Addict hasn't licensed it, what are we even talking about here? How can it be legit? Cyclone can only be made by LL. Period.
It's literally Aero / SB thing!
LL is making the exact same Cyclone they've always been making, from the exact same pattern, with the exact same hardware. It's literally the exact same jacket they've been making since the 70's. Like, 0% difference.
IMHO, this does not quite rise to the level of SB/AL's conduct. According to the accounts I read, SB/AL used actual patterns misappropriated by Will Lauder from Aero. Addict did not steal LL's pattern and, while they likely reverse engineered the jacket, that is one step less egregious than outright stealing the pattern from the originator.
Reading this thread I assume some of you guys really hate non-Schott Perfecto-style jackets, right?
"Perfecto style" jackets aren't all the same. The kind of cheap crap you see imported from china and sold in open air markets for £50 have not completely copied the pattern of a Schott Perfecto. Usually they have similar features: cigarette lighter pocket, epaulettes, belt etc and that's it.
What Addict have done is shamelessly copied the exact pattern of designs invented in living memory by a business still in existence, and done this over and over again because they can't be arsed to think of their own designs.
It's shameless. And a very poor take for Clutch.
I'm just not sure at which point a leather jacket, which comes in a limited series of styles and features can actually be considered a rip-off of another one.
I'm just thinking out loud, I'm just not sure where one draws the line between copying styles and looks (something that every fashion brand does) and actually ripping off someone else's design.
The only people I can see buying an Addict copy of a Lewis jacket in London are people who are ignorant. Why would anybody buy a boxy generic cut which is no better in quality (in fact worse with the matte hardware) for double or triple the price of a made to measure version at Lewis Leathers in a variety of choices of hide - horse, cow, sheep... and customisation options of either stripes down the sleeves or bands across them etc. It's just a really bad option and I hate how Clutch hope to catch the ignorant purchaser for a sale. Clutch stock Tenjin Works which I think is a much better offering because whilst it's hideously expensive compared to a Lewis jacket, at least they are making their own jackets rather than copying others.
I wasn't entirely clear; I think it's around £2,000 but could be more. I'm not sure if £2,000 is the full price or just the deposit. A deposit is taken and then the jacket is made. But I think the least you have to spend for one is £2,000. It's just not something I would spend on a jacket of any description.
Prices in the UK for Japanese jackets are not representative
we have to pay import duties and VAT on top.
There are two separate issues here - moral considerations and legal ones. A lot of folks may consider this to be morally illegitimate because Addict (like several other companies) are reproducing (with varying degrees of exactittude) jackets still in production by the original maker, Lewis Leathers (let's not split hairs by getting technical re Lewis in effect being a reproducer themselves of jackets long out of production when the current owners took charge). Legally, however, Addict are completely within the law. Copyright law in the UK (similar to that in the USA and also throughout Europe, I believe) does not recognise anything directly protectable in clothing design, clothes being primarily considered utilitarian. In the EU, we do also have the concept of an Unregistered Design Right, protectable for up to 25 years. Of course, as these designs are all much older than that, this protection, primarily used for fashion garments, isn't much use where the design is a thirty or forty year old one for a motorcycle jacket. Lewis can protect their logo in trade mark. Also, should they come up with some revolutionary new textile or hardware that meets the standard of inventiveness required for patent, they could use that - but unless they create something really new and inventive (which is, frankly, unlikely; the last patent that revolutionised the basic leather jacket was the zip....), it's unlikely.
It's a very different situation. SB directly copied Aero's *patterns*, which can be copyrighted. The *design* of the jacket cannot be protected - had SB done what Addict. Leather Monkeys and such have done - take apart originals and reconstruct the designs using these to make their own patterns - they'd have been within the law.
Yes, so the Design Right (assuming we could retrospectively apply it) would have run out in the 90s.
The laws are even more free and easy in Japan, where Addict are based: essentially unless it's either a deliberate counterfeit or there's a likelihood that buyers won't know the difference between the original and the copy, it's fair game. There's quite a liberal interpretation of this in Japan, hence the sheer volume of legitimate 'lookalike' products on sale there that could be missed at first glance.
I can well understand how frustrating this sort of thing must be for Derek and the team at LL, but unfortunately that's how it goes. In any case, much like anyone can copy a Fender Stratocaster but only Fender can make a Fender Stratocaster, only Lewis can make a Lewis Leathers jacket. The LL label matters very much to their core market, so TM gives them some level of protection in that sense.
This is correct. Put bluntly, Addict have copied designs by Lewis without infringing Lewis Leathers' TMs or any design right (because there is no protectable design right at this point).
I see where you're going with that, but Schott's claim to have invented the style they dub the Perfecto is somewhat spurious.
That was a really interesting read, Edward!
But yeah, you're correct. I was speaking strictly from a moral standpoint. I also have automatically assumed that LL has trademarked their IP in some way. Haven't had a clue about any of that legal stuff, how the copyright law recognizes only the pattern and not the design as a protected IP nor that it can run out. That's some crazy stuff... Especially since it's well known that LL did come up with the design for most of their jackets.
That would explain why Japanese makers are able to get away with all the LL knock-offs they're constantly producing.
Very interesting thread indeed. I always want to visit the Clutch Store in London, and now I am even more interested because of all these Addict collections being sold there. Regardless of all the copyright (morally or legally), Addict jackets are not intended to be sold outside of Japan anyway. Somebody has already mentioned that they are supposedly to be a more affordable option for the local Japanese market, hence the cut is very different and designed mainly for Asian built buyers.
Honestly, the Clutch group from Japan should have a close tide with Lewis as they do include a lot off Lewis jackets in their magazines (as well as advertisements), I am not even sure what their marketing dept or buyers are doing. Clutch and Lewis are pretty much targeting the same group of buyers but I guess there are also fashion chasers and fans of Japan products around to fill the gap. I am sure quite a number of people who shop in the Clutch shop would not know the existence of Lewis shop just within walking distance in London.
The jacket on show in the first page looks like a hybrid of a LL Cyclone and the Wolverine jacket in the X-men movies. Not my cup of tea anyway.
I had the chance to visit the Addict Clothes store in Tokyo last summer and talk to their owner, Satoshi Ishijima. Long before making his own jackets he was importing British Vintage motorcycle jackets to Japan, which he then sold out of his Tokyo store. Even today he still imports and sells British Vintage jackets.
At some point he also started importing and fixing up British Vintage motorcycles, mainly pre-war models. Many of those bikes are available for sale at his store. Everyone at the store rides a British Vintage motorcycle to work, they are parked in front of the store.
He is someone who just absolutely loves everything about British Vintage motorcycling. You can feel that passion when you talk to him. It’s genuine and the reason why he is doing this.
Satoshi and Derek Harris know each other and have met many times in London as well as Tokyo. At one point back in 2008 Derek even visited Satoshi’s shop in Tokyo:
http://addict-clothes.com/apparel-blog/vintage-jacket/1798
To be fair, that was before Satoshi started marking his own jackets. I have no idea what their current relationship is like.
At some point Satoshi realized that the amount of quality Vintage jackets was drying up. Jackets in great condition became harder to find and with that prices went up too. At that point he started to think about making his own jackets utilizing Japanese tanneries, Japanese cloth and hardware.
What he set out to do was to replicate the look and feel of the Vintage jackets that he was selling, which lead to their label “Addict Clothes - New Vintage”. He worked with Japanese tanneries to get the hides tanned to his specifications. The sheepskin he uses is a tea core leather with a brown core. It ages beautifully as can be seen in his personal AD-10. The hardware he uses is all custom made for an aged appearance trying to emulate how Vintage hardware looks like. Even the zipper tape has a bit of a faded appearance.
I feel what he does is an homage to Vintage Lewis Leathers, Barbour and Belstaff jackets. What impressed me the most is that he is doing it with a very high level of quality in terms of materials and craftsmanship. From what I’ve seen it is well on par with the other Japanese high-end leather jacket makers.
Personally, I think the offerings of Lewis Leathers and Addict Clothes complement each other. For someone like the OP a Lewis Leathers jacket makes more sense as it is the real deal, priced well in his location, can be customized and has shiny hardware. Others who value high-end Japanese materials and craftsmanship combined with the Vintage approach Addict Clothes took their offering would be the better choice.
It is also well known now that the Dominator and the Corsair may not be an original design by LL and that they might have copied an existing design of a then existing British competitor. And the point about RRL being knock-offs of Levi's is being ignored.That was a really interesting read, Edward!
But yeah, you're correct. I was speaking strictly from a moral standpoint. I also have automatically assumed that LL has trademarked their IP in some way. Haven't had a clue about any of that legal stuff, how the copyright law recognizes only the pattern and not the design as a protected IP nor that it can run out. That's some crazy stuff... Especially since it's well known that LL did come up with the design for most of their jackets.
That would explain why Japanese makers are able to get away with all the LL knock-offs they're constantly producing.
The big difference with the Levis stuff, of course, is that afaik Levis weren't actively producing their LVC line when companies in Japan started doing so - as I understand it, LVC was Levi's reaction to the Japanese companies showing that there was a market for this stuff...