Cleavage

[i_am_the_scruff]

I have big boobs. I don't like my body. I'm very self conscious and unhappy about it. BUT my breast size is something I like. Therefore, it's something i'll show off.

I don't think boobs should be right out when you're out shopping during the day or at work but I think a bit of cleavage is fine.
Don't get me wrong, I don't go out with them hanging out, to be honest now i'm thinking about it they haven't seen the light of day in a good while. But if I wanted to I would feel fine about showing them off a little during the day. And I wouldn't think twice about having a top or dress that really shows them off at night when going out.

 

[Darhling]

Bodytypes are also a big factor when it comes to clothes. I am very short waisted (meaning the distance from my bottom ribs to my waist is non existant, which means the distance from the girls to the waist is VERY short) and my waist isn't very defined, so if I put on a sweater/shirt/dress it has to be fitted or else I look 20 pounds heavier and very chubby. But then when it is fitted to my body, it is extra fitted to my girls.

Cherry Lips, you are amazing! :eusa_clap

 

[chanteuseCarey]

I am another that never really showed or currently shows alot of cleavage, other than occasionally in evening wear. After having lost 20+ lbs, and 13% body fat- I'm a 34DDD instead of a 38DDD- though my new Playtex is a 36DD!! With having to literally bust my butt exercising (besides eating much better) to have done this and keep it off- I still have a large bust. Before I lost the weight one of my goals was to get breast reduction surgery-it still is. My younger sister did it years ago, and my mother always wished she had been able too. Being big busted ain't all its cracked up to be.

As I've not just lost weight but worked hard to TONE up- a big deal for me, I'm just NOT into showing my breasts off. I'd rather show off a toned torso these days in a pretty dress or a belted waistline- see pics here as an example; one is new Ralph Lauren clothes, the other a vintage dress from 40's:

the RL blue top here is very low, the first thing I did when I tried it on at the store was to walk over to Lingerie and find a nice tank top/camisole to wear with it. To me this look is more feminine and alluring than flashing the girls... I'd had many compliments from men and ladies regarding both looks.

As the mother of a young teen daughter and preteen son, modesty has been a big virtue we've worked with in our training up of our children. I'm proud they have embraced it. They are certainly not part of the herd on this one... Who knows maybe they will start a new trend!

As regards vintage style, I have gone to many Art Deco events over the last 18 years. You see lots of bared back in beautiful 30's evening gowns especially, nobody is into baring their breasts- that wasn't the look. I think if somebody did it would be most likely considered BAD FORM and be frowned upon-politely

I personally LIKE the vintage look in that modesty was for the most part the norm in day to day everyday life. I think that modest dress is thought of by others as more refreshing, comes off as "classy" to see, as it is not the norm in this decade.

 

[Paisley]

IAs far as double standards today go, here's something to wonder about: Is there a *male* equivalent of cleavage? If so, would it be considered acceptable and appropriate to display it in a business setting? If not, why not? If yes, why isn't it?

Well, there's toe cleavage. Men have to wear wingtips or somesuch to the offce, while women can wear strappy high-heeled sandals without stockings.

At my office, men have to wear long sleeves, but women don't.

 

[Paisley]

I think from a vintage standpoint, you just won't find cleavage shown in daywear of the thirties and forties -- I've been going thru books and magazines looking for a specific reference, but I think it was something that didn't *need* to be written down in "rule" form, because it was universally understood that this just wasn't done. Note the articles I posted earlier from 1946 expressing amazement at the cleavage-sightings on film -- it wouldn't have been an issue had this been something people were accustomed to seeing.

Emily Post's 1940 edition of Etiquette mentions sheer clothing at the office (as in, don't), advised women to put up their hair or keep it short for work, and to generally avoid confusing office work with "chorus work." I can't remember her saying anything about cleavage.

 

[cherry lips]

I find it interesting what makes you feel nude. A halter top is the most I've shown of my back, and that is only the upper part. I think showing my entire back would make me feel even more naked than a hint of cleavage (though I've never tried the former). Come to think of it, I don't show any leg either, only below knee.
I've read that Marilyn Monroe (although she did nudie shots when she was Norma Jean) never wanted to show the soles of her feet, because it made her feel too naked and vulnerable. Being a girl who wears glasses, there have been times when I've felt naked taking them off.

 

[Lady Day]

There has been quite a bit of talk here.

Lady Day, I'm surprised to hear this opinion voiced by you, actually this whole discussion interests me...I understand if you want to cover up your own bust, but why shoud you care what others gals choose to do with theirs?

My comment was in no way a personal thing. I cant understand why you took it that way. My comment was referring to the double standard of some women saying "Take me and respect me as a person," yet wearing clothing that in no way shape or form allows the other person to see them in a light OTHER than sexualized first, which can be hard to get past in a first impression, then, said woman being angry at the other person (man or woman) because they didint take them seriously.

I'm disappointed in the look Sophia is giving Jayne, acting like a virgin queen. I wouldn't mind dining with Jayne, and her girls, any day of the week!

I dont think shes being a 'virgin queen' or anything of the sort! I think shes thinking, "Man, this womans cleavage is distracting, and its near my coffee, and cant stop looking, even though I WANT TO!"

As for "sexualized state", it's all in the eye of the beholder (and the beholder's mind/imagination/libido/hormones/sexuality/fetisch/taste etc).

THIS is the Political Correctness Im getting at. Sexuality is NOT always in the eye of the beholder. There are many generally engrained sexualized traits that have been expressed throughout time consistently, and cleavage is one of them. Cleavage is distracting, and its suppose to be distracting! That is why it frustrates me when I read of women filing suit at their work when they are told to go home and cover it up.

I think having perspective on personal tastes and forms of expression is different and frankly more realistic than than using the blanket dogma of everyone can do what they want and to each his own. Sure, you sure can, but dont expect the reaction of the other person to be the complete opposite of what generally goes with that 'whatever you want', you might need to guide that interacton to what you want and then, really isnt that more work than you wanted to do in the first place?

LD

 

[Girl Friday]

That's funny, I thought this was going to be a poll.

I have got cleavage but I really don't like showing it off, it is kind of an unwanted attention kind of thing. Maybe if I was walking the red carpet I might consider showing it, but I prefer for people to look me in the eye.

 

[StaceFace]

Albeit, not like Jayne

 

[Smuterella]

this thread is starting to make me feel very uncomfortable - its veering slightly towards the judgemental territory of saying a woman is asking for trouble if she dresses in a certain way.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Note the difference in that shot as compared to modern ideas of cleavage. The breasts actually look to be pushed down and apart, rather than up, out, and together. A lot less "in your face" look, so to speak.

Of course, Hollywood glamour photography has always operated by its own standards -- you'd likely never see a dress cut like that on the average woman, unless perhaps it was intended as a nightgown.

 

[AllaboutEve]

I don't think that the picture of "Joan" shown earlier in this thread differs in relative terms to the many shots of the very revealing deep cut gowns worn by Rita Hayworth and others during the 1940's; It's daring, it's provocative and it certainly gets people talking, surely that's the point. It's perhaps something that wouldn't automatically be adopted by mainstream fashion but it is making a strong sexual statement.

I also think that it's relevant to also take into consideration the shift of focus from decade to decade on which areas of women's bodies were considered the most erotic. The 40's also focused hugely on legs, look at pictures of Betty Grable, and the bare midriff also started to spring up everywhere.

I realise that for the average girl walking down the street in a bathing suit or bikini was not an option but I am just trying to illustrate how to my mind the 40's fashion was by no means governed by puritanical thinking.

As far as I can see the picture of Christina Hendricks in her modern day dress is let down by the fact that the dress just doesn't fit her simply magnificent frame more so than that the fact that it fails button at her neck!

 

[LizzieMaine]

THIS is the Political Correctness Im getting at. Sexuality is NOT always in the eye of the beholder. There are many generally engrained sexualized traits that have been expressed throughout time consistently, and cleavage is one of them. Cleavage is distracting, and its suppose to be distracting! That is why it frustrates me when I read of women filing suit at their work when they are told to go home and cover it up.

And this is exactly the kind of issue that's important to discuss. To illustrate: right now, as I'm posting this, there are several men reading this thread. I won't embarass them by calling their names, but do any of us think for a minute that they're reading the thread because they're interested in the fashion aspects of the question? No. We all know why they're looking, the same way and for the same reasons they look in the real world. And that's why this is an issue.

 

[Lady Day]

this thread is starting to make me feel very uncomfortable - its veering slightly towards the judgemental territory of saying a woman is asking for trouble if she dresses in a certain way.

I was seriously counting the minutes before someone posted this generalization, so thank you, I owe myself a lunch out

LD

 

[Lillemor]

I certainly don't think that anyone's way of dressing gives anyone else a right to treat them in a disrespectful or different way than they would've otherwise, assume things about their personality or competences and the way a woman dresses certainly never implies that she's asking for trouble. Well, it shouldn't imply that.

Though I may like the sentiments I associate with dressing up and dressing more modestly than most people do today such as the respect it indicated that you were showing to others, I respect and actually like that there are people who are doing entirely different retro/vintage styles than I would choose to wear myself and no one loses respect in my eyes just because they choose to wear something where I may consider elements of their style vintage inappropriate or just inappropriate in a general context. I still find their alternative takes very inspiring.

In the past I've gone out of my way to defend people's rights to wear tattoos, get piercings, do whatever they want with their hair, and wear alternative styles that may not meet with mainstream approval at least privately and in jobs where there's usually a great deal of leaway in the way you're allowed to dress and I still blow up when someone thinks that someone's alternative style leads to differential treatment, violence or any kind of disrespect for the person who chooses not to look mainstream.

However, if cleavages are considered inappropriate (along with sandals and shorts) in your work place, then I don't care if your style is mainstream, goth, punk, something else or vintage. Then you just have to abide by the rules or find another job. The same goes for any other dress codes all employees in a work place are expected to adhere to.

 

[Lily Powers]

And this is exactly the kind of issue that's important to discuss. To illustrate: right now, as I'm posting this, there are several men reading this thread. I won't embarass them by calling their names, but do any of us think for a minute that they're reading the thread because they're interested in the fashion aspects of the question? No. We all know why they're looking, the same way and for the same reasons they look in the real world. And that's why this is an issue.

I noticed currently, there are 1,195 views of this thread, but only 54 posts.

The iconic photo of Jayne Mansfield and Sophia Lauren has always seemed to me as a "just checking out the competition" glance.

Cherry Lips, you said, "I think showing my entire back would make me feel even more naked than a hint of cleavage (though I've never tried the former). " I think I know what you mean - that's because a bare back is a likely indicator of a woman not wearing a bra, and that only a thin layer of fabric separates the breasts from the daylight (or moonlight). So, along that line of thinking, a bare back can be very suggestive.

 

[Foofoogal]

Vintage real life people and vintage movie stars are not the same at all. People lived vicariously thru the stars and still do really.
It was unheard of and brought tons of gossip including magazines to just gawk at the ladies that were so bold that other ladies would only dream of doing. Not that any of the ones on the farm wanted to really be them. Maybe some got stars in their eyes and ran away to find fame.
Who wants to be some of the stars of today with issues. Nothing has changed at all really.
I don't see this as judgmental at all but reality.
I could personally care less unless some Jayne is pushing them in my honeys face and even then he should be expected to only dream like the ladies back on the farm. It is reality though not proper in the workplace but I guess it depends on the workplace really.

I also think the prettiest place on a woman is the collarbone but I guess the norm says it is ok. Whatever the norm or the majority seems to think is what is dictated. Will it ever change. Maybe if everyone cannot find clothing and eventually get immune to the shock of breasts hanging out but I doubt it. Seriously doubt it.

 

[Lillemor]

Vintage real life people and vintage movie stars are not the same at all. People lived vicariously thru the stars and still do really.
It was unheard of and brought tons of gossip including magazines to just gawk at the ladies that were so bold that other ladies would only dream of doing. Not that any of the ones on the farm wanted to really be them. Maybe some got stars in their eyes and ran away to find fame.
Who wants to be some of the stars of today with issues. Nothing has changed at all really.
I don't see this as judgmental at all but reality.
I could personally care less unless some Jayne is pushing them in my honeys face and even then he should be expected to only dream like the ladies back on the farm. It is reality though not proper in the workplace but I guess it depends on the workplace really.

I also think the prettiest place on a woman is the collarbone but I guess the norm says it is ok. Whatever the norm or the majority seems to think is what is dictated. Will it ever change. Maybe if everyone cannot find clothing and eventually get immune to the shock of breasts hanging out but I doubt it. Seriously doubt it.

This is a question of curiosity, not an argument. Would most of the celebrities have dressed in a manner that would be considered provocative for their times privately?

I think that like today, the average female voyeur enjoyed the juicy stories and shocking photos because it made them feel better about themselves.

Some research have shown that societies with a more conservative view of what a woman can show in public are more likely to hold unrealistic ideas about what a woman should look like and will tend to sexualize women in press more than less societies with a less conservative view on what a woman can show in public of her body.

Other reseach indicate that women who live in societies where a lot of body exposure is acceptable often tend to become more body shape conscious and have a negative self image.

I'm sadly no longer in the habit of saving links to articles and research papers on issues that may become relevant in a future debate.

 

[Smuterella]

I was seriously counting the minutes before someone posted this generalization, so thank you, I owe myself a lunch out

LD

I do apologise for such overbearing banality

 

[Foofoogal]

Would most of the celebrities have dressed in a manner that would be considered provocative for their times privately?

I am sure some would of and some wouldn't of. I believe they had no choice in public. Old Hollywood pretty much dictated to the star every factor of their lives. It may of even written in the contract for Jayne to show cleavage. Bridget Bardot comes to mind in this.
Just like some pick and choose to be in nude shots now but with much more choice and control over their options.

Jayne was not hired to be Debbie Reynolds otherwords.