Cleavage

[Lady Day]

Do we ladies really need to see this on FL? Its a shame she feels she needs to show it off so blatantly in her personal life. The pics of her dressing modestly as on the show are actually much more attractive...

I think thats the point, thats her job, and well, maybe not the was WE want her to dress, but the way she dresses.

Miss Mansfield is showing about the same amount in both pics of hers posted here as well.

But lets NOT have this turn into an attack on a person (which I too appear to be guilty of). Lets bring this back to the topic.

Does anyone have any interesting vintage articles about this to share?

LD

 

[JupitersDarling]

Does anyone have any interesting vintage articles about this to share?

LD

I'm not done reading it myself, but for those who like academic essays, i found a sociological essay on the "Erotic versus the Chaste" in fashion and dress which also mentions décolletage.
Social Organistation and Social Process, Anselm Strauss

It starts at page 108.

 

[JupitersDarling]

Social Organistation and Social Process, Anselm Strauss
.

Ok, that was pretty short but had some interesting points. Strauss makes the case that fashion, among other things in Western culture, is closely tied to identity ambivalence- that is, tension between two contrasts. In this case, eroticism and modesty. Joan is a great example of someone who embodies this tension. She's well-covered, but wearing clothing that reveals her shape. Her shapewear too, conceals as it molds her attributes. I think pretty much everyone agreed that they preferred her "Mad Men" look. If she were wearing a muumuu or habit, that'd be the other extreme, and we would no doubt wonder "what was she thinking??"

Look at the 20s. It was fashionable to conceal the bust and waist, yet ladies revealed their legs. The Victorians covered all their skin up... but for all their supposed avoidance of exposure, they didn't conceal the shape of the waist and bust... in fact they sometimes emphasized it.

I suppose we are again in a time when the fashion cycle favors the extreme of bosomy exposure... while at the same time we don't favor the amount of fabric the Victorians did. lol

 

[Lady Day]

I suppose we are again in a time when the fashion cycle favors the extreme of bosomy exposure... while at the same time we don't favor the amount of fabric the Victorians did. lol

I think we are also in an era of an abundance of political correctness, where women, frankly exhibit a double (no pun intended) standard to sexualize themselves via exposed breasts, but want to be taken as contributing thinking individuals while exhibiting that sexualized state. That is a rather difficult position to put the other person in especially at a first meeting.

LD

 

[miss_elise]

what is your take on regency period dresses that expose the decolletage then?

 

[Lady Day]

Well during that time wasnt EVERYTHING else covered? Ankles and wrists were revealing right? Now everything can be revealed, so where is the mystery?

Also, the breast was a tool as much if not more so than an accessory during that time, right?

LD

 

[Lillemor]

Some people truly feel that: "if you've got it; flaunt it!". I used to be of that school too and I always had cleavage on display I was also a larger lady and had trouble finding anything that looked feminine and emphasized my curves right. If a modern top had a flattering V-neck or wrap around, then it usually showed some cleavage too. It is easier to be modest without losing my curves now that I'm smaller in the chest area.

Now I've swung the pendule and can't stand any cleavage on display. Many women may have the misguided notion that an otherwise formal and mature looking style looks more youthful if they show cleavage! I've heard that one and been encouraged to do so and I took up the ill advice in the past. Now the logic just fails me.:eusa_doh:

I know much more cleavage has been fashionable in historical eras before "our chosen" one and if I had the occassion to wear those styles I wouldn't be shy of doing it historically correct and pushing it all up there of what I have left after weight loss.lol As someone else pointed out, not much else was on show and in the end I think it's a balance thing but the context also needs to be taken into account.

The thing I feel goes all wrong today is the lack of balance. Everything's on display regardless of the context. I think what I like about fx. the 1940s-50s is the way things are wrapped to flatter feminine curves without everything having to be on display at all times.

I know four fingers are pointing at me. In my 20s I used to wear shorts with spaghetti strap tops with very low necklines as soon as the temperatures climbed up over 20C. Bra straps all over the place too.

 

[Laura Chase]

What Im looking for is a culmination of thoughts on addressing cleavage in your vintage wear and how, if you go to a formal event do you show cleavage, or go backless, which Ive always felt was the cleavage of yesteryear

Id LOVE for ladies who have any vintage etiquette guidelines on the topic to post them, please! Any crazy 'contraptions' of the vintage era as well.

LD

Sorry, I decided not to comment on this thread because I understand Lady Day wants it to be about "thoughts on addressing cleavage in your vintage wear and how", but now the thread is being turned into a moral and political issue. Please stay on topic...

Seriously, stop being so judgmental... Why are women so judgmental towards eachother? Why can't a women be both intelligent and beautiful AND show off her large chest? I think this is wholly possible and we as women should support this "double standard". It's a positive thing. It makes me so sad when women are this judgmental towards eachother... What happened to sisterhood?

 

[cherry lips]

Lady Day, I'm surprised to hear this opinion voiced by you, actually this whole discussion interests me. On myself, I've almost always chosen to cover the girls (I love that expression ) up with cloth, however I still might be parading them by wearing a bullet bra (check out my "barbie boobies" in the barbie thread!) and going for the sweater girl look.

I understand if you want to cover up your own bust, but why shoud you care what others gals choose to do with theirs? I'm disappointed in the look Sophia is giving Jayne, acting like a virgin queen. I wouldn't mind dining with Jayne, and her girls, any day of the week!

As for "sexualized state", it's all in the eye of the beholder (and the beholder's mind/imagination/libido/hormones/sexuality/fetisch/taste etc). I have a weakness for a certain type of young men, and yes they do look like walking talking sex objects to me (heaven!), and yes I do feel like a young Hefner in the playboy mansion when I'm surrounded by them... but they're just wearing t-shirts and jeans (and how they wear them! and those veined arms! and the soft skin! Drooool!) Ok, maybe I don't take them seriously, but it's hard to when their looks keep distracting me! I'm very friendly and respectful of course (no grabbing etc). Oh temptation!

I do agree with Lady Day that it would be interesting to see vintage mentionings/ etiquette/ articles on the subject.

I think we are also in an era of an abundance of political correctness, where women, frankly exhibit a double (no pun intended) standard to sexualize themselves via exposed breasts, but want to be taken as contributing thinking individuals while exhibiting that sexualized state. That is a rather difficult position to put the other person in especially at a first meeting.
LD

 

[Smuterella]

Lady Day, I'm surprised to hear this opinion voiced by you, actually this whole discussion interests me. On myself, I've almost always chosen to cover the girls (I love that expression ) up with cloth, however I still might be parading them by wearing a bullet bra (check out my "barbie boobies" in the barbie thread!) and going for the sweater girl look.

I understand if you want to cover up your own bust, but why shoud you care what others gals choose to do with theirs? I'm disappointed in the look Sophia is giving Jayne, acting like a virgin queen. I wouldn't mind dining with Jayne, and her girls, any day of the week!

As for "sexualized state", it's all in the eye of the beholder (and the beholder's mind/imagination/libido/hormones/sexuality/fetisch/taste etc). I have a weakness for a certain type of young men, and yes they do look like walking talking sex objects to me (heaven!), and yes I do feel like a young Hefner in the playboy mansion when I'm surrounded by them... but they're just wearing t-shirts and jeans (and how they wear them! and those veined arms! and the soft skin! Drooool!) Ok, maybe I don't take them seriously, but it's hard to when their looks keep distracting me! I'm very friendly and respectful of course (no grabbing etc). Oh temptation!

I do agree with Lady Day that it would be interesting to see vintage mentionings/ etiquette/ articles on the subject.

Oh cherry lips I do ADORE you

 

[Smuterella]

Do we ladies really need to see this on FL?

Are your sensibilities so delicate?

 

[Laura Chase]

I understand if you want to cover up your own bust, but why shoud you care what others gals choose to do with theirs? I'm disappointed in the look Sophia is giving Jayne, acting like a virgin queen. I wouldn't mind dining with Jayne, and her girls, any day of the week!

This is wery well said. It's the whore/madonna complex all over again. Seriously, aren't we beyond that? Let's see more cleavage!

 

[Miss Golightly]

My friend and I were only discussing this topic the other day - I was saying that if I'm in the company of a woman who is wearing a low cut top with a lot of cleavage showing it's kind of hypnotic - I can't help staring! My friend laughed and said "I know! I'm the very same!!!!!" - the two of us find our eyes drawn to a certain area! It can be very distracting! I know a lot of ladies with larger chests find it a problem when certain men can only talk and stare at their chests - and not their faces when having a discussion.

I think the whole showing or not showing the cleavage is a case of chacun à son goût as the French would say.

Anyway it's not for me - that's why I love a lot of the dresses from the 50's - girly boat necked sundresses for the day and cute wiggle dresses for the evening.

 

[Lillemor]

For a none observant person like me who can't remember when I last noticed someone's cleavage if ever, who isn't affected by cleavages in my day-to-day goings and certainly wouldn't judge someone's competences or personality based on their choice of style whether this includes showing cleavage or not, I can see how my initial post was a very hypothetical knee jerk and indeed hypocritical because I'm easily provoked when others show disapproval of various alternative styles.

I still feel it's hard to let go of these notions of when, where and in which context cleavages are acceptable and I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable with showing cleavage in a casual, day setting or more formal/business/serious setting. To be frank; There have just been so many other things to focus on in life.

I'd expand on that if this stupid laptop I'm borrowing didn't keep onlogging me. Yes, I've edited both posts to try to stay on topic.

 

[Foofoogal]

It's the whore/madonna complex all over again. Seriously, aren't we beyond that?

in your dreams. nothing new under the sun.

There will Always be Jaynes and also Sophias. Fact, no matter which way one falls.

 

[Kadri]

But then there are many of us,who are neither.

And yet tolerant towards both 'characterizations'.

 

[vampygirl13]

VERY interesting dialogue here.

I'm well endowed and I used to be mroe of the notion of showing it all off. Then I realized (at a young age) that the attention I was getting was all negative, not positive. I may wear a tight top but rarely do the girls get let out very much. I'm pale so they need to stay creamy and pretty!

Don't get me wrong, showing off the girls a little bit to go out is great, but the whole trend of having the girls practically naked turns me off. I'm curvy but I like to show my curves WITH the boobs---all in one package usually. Makes for a better impression.

And I'm sorry but I HATE cleavage at work---looks SO trashy.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think from a vintage standpoint, you just won't find cleavage shown in daywear of the thirties and forties -- I've been going thru books and magazines looking for a specific reference, but I think it was something that didn't *need* to be written down in "rule" form, because it was universally understood that this just wasn't done. Note the articles I posted earlier from 1946 expressing amazement at the cleavage-sightings on film -- it wouldn't have been an issue had this been something people were accustomed to seeing.

The lowest any of my own necklines go, both actual vintage daywear, and repro made from vintage patterns, is about an inch below the breastbone. I think that's a pretty good indication of what the mainstream fashion was. Evening wear is a whole different thing, but I agree that the small of the back was seen as a much more displayable bit of anatomy than the tops of the breasts.

As far as double standards today go, here's something to wonder about: Is there a *male* equivalent of cleavage? If so, would it be considered acceptable and appropriate to display it in a business setting? If not, why not? If yes, why isn't it?

 

[kamikat]

I avoiding saying anything about this topic so I could think about it. Honestly, I think alot of today's cleavage comes from lack of clothing styles. This week, I've been shopping for clothes. I have a HUGE bust and normally sew my own tops. However, we're going on a trip to a very warm climate and I don't have time to make a bunch of clothes. Every single top I tried on showed cleavage. It wasn't about being able to pick modest vs cleavage, it was all cleavage. If that's what's in the stores, that's what women buy.

 

[cherry lips]

The articles you posted were fun to read, LizzieMaine

I guess if you work at the farm this would be ok :

Jane and her girls

Mmm, some male cleavage:

same man, more undone buttons
Mraouw!