Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[John in Covina]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]When that religion forces itself upon me, rather than me voluntarily going to a place where my questions can be answered. [/QUOTE]
****
So, in public schools, when children are forced to learn about alternative religions such as Islam, would that be wrong?

 

[John in Covina]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]When it forms up in ranks and intimidates people into succumbing to its point of view through fear.[/QUOTE]
******
Doc, on this one, I'd like a "for instance" example, I know in the past this has happened but in the relatively recent past, I don't recall it happening local to me. (Alledgedly: Well other than a small town in Utah, were a Morman fundamentalist was running the show.)

 

[Roger]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]When that religion forces itself upon me, rather than me voluntarily going to a place where my questions can be answered. When it knocks on the door of my private home and tries to convert me. When it gets out a megaphone and shouts at me while I walk through town. When it forms up in ranks and intimidates people into succumbing to its point of view through fear.[/QUOTE]

That's why I have a peep hole on the door.lol Another little joke I like to do when I see certain people walking around door to door is to go and clean my shotgun in the garage with the door open.lol

 

[John in Covina]

Are Christians treated the same as Jews in Israel?

***
It is my understanding that Israel, with in its borders, is very tolerant of other religions. To what extent is Israel a secular nation and a religious nation?

 

[jamespowers]

September 28, 2006

SUNY SPONSORS SATANISM

On September 30, Adirondack Community College (ACC) will sponsor Pagan Pride Day. ACC, located outside Lake George in Queensbury, New York, is part of the State University of New York (SUNY).

“ACC Student Association, which is hosting Pagan Pride Day, says the event is free to the public and is designed to be ‘a celebration of religious diversity.’ But nothing is free—New York taxpayers are paying for this event—and a panel on religious diversity that was initially considered will not occur. However, Patricia Telesco will be there, author of How to be a Wicked Witch, and so will John Allee, a Satanic priest and founder of the First Church of Satan.

“According to an ACC news release, ‘The purpose of Pagan Pride Day is to support religious tolerance, eliminate prejudice based on religious beliefs,’ and other noble goals. But it is a lie. On the website of the First Church of Satan, Christians are instructed that they can ‘deprogram’ themselves by ‘making fun of religious dogma.’ But before one gets to the FAQ part of the website, a short video pops up on the home page to the tune of Gloria Gaynor’s song, ‘I Will Survive’; a bearded man posing as Jesus dressed in a white robe starts mimicking the words. He then disrobes and struts down a street in a diaper before being hit by a bus.

“Other videos include ‘Gideon Bible Rant,’ a diatribe that shows a picture of the Bible with a sticker on it, ‘Warning! Literal belief in this book may endanger your health and life.’ Then there is ‘Satanic Sexual Vision,’ which features a woman dressed as a nun in a black veil wearing a black bra, black slip and black panties; she is shown masturbating. ‘Do You Take It Up the A--?’ depicts simulated anal sex, but ‘Keep Your Jesus Off My P----’ is no longer available. This isn’t higher education—it’s an obscene assault on Christianity.”

 

[Roger]

***
It is my understanding that Israel, with in its borders, is very tolerant of other religions. To what extent is Israel a secular nation and a religious nation?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.[huh]

 

[John in Covina]

Pod People!

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux] When it knocks on the door of my private home and tries to convert me. When it gets out a megaphone and shouts at me while I walk through town. [/QUOTE]
*****
In this, religion is a funny thing, especially Christianity. The hypothetical: If you knew the bridge was just washed out and that friends were leaving to go home, where their route would take them over that bridge, would you warn them?

In this idea, as a Christian, my love for others compells me to warn them of the upcoming diaster that will befall them. If I remained silent, I am complicit with the disaster.

Just think of how the beginning of the movie "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers" starts where everyone thinks Kevin McCarthy is nuts because he is overwhelmed trying to warn people of a situation they are going to have a hard time understanding, let alone believing.

Can it be taken too far, yes, but it doesn't change the act of warning.

It can certainly seem like a lot of foolishness and even to other Christians!

 

[John in Covina]

That's why I have a peep hole on the door.lol Another little joke I like to do when I see certain people walking around door to door is to go and clean my shotgun in the garage with the door open.lol

***
Actually, as a Lutheran, when the Jehova's Witness or the traveling elders for the LDS show up, I am tempted to tell them where they are off track, from the Lutheran view. I just politely send them on their way and admire them for their steadfastness in their faith and hope the Gospel gets thru to them as it should for all Christians.

 

[jake_fink]

December 25...Christmas. A date determined for recognition and celebration of the Christs birth. The name says it all. Do some want to change that to Religion Day?....possibly to just pile on to denigrate and starve the original purpose? Again...I don't even see that! Where are the added symbols or displays in department stores or public settings to make it the "All Religion season" rather than the "Christmas season". What is very evident are the objections of the few who are offended that "Christ"mas should be for Christ. Not only just for Christ..but even for Christ. Rather than a try to multiply..it seems an effort to deny. The idea..that not everyone believes in Jesus as the savior...so "Seasons Greetings' should suffice. Putting book stores and malls on guard and sensative to the reason for the season. When they dishonor Santa is when all hell will break loose! Wait a minute...they already made him an old drunken streetwise foul mouthed bum.
HD

Four hundred years after Christ was born it was determined that December 25 would be the day to celebrate his birth in an attempt to eclipse other pagan rituals that took place on the same day. Celebrations of Mithras, Attis and Dionyssius (Saturnalia) all most generlly fell on the 25th - thought to be the day that daytime began to get longer and the nights shorter, thus celebrated as the birthday of the sun (son), which was key to the pagan celebrations. The date was selected as a political move by the 4th C leaders of the Christian church. Attis is particualry interesting as this myth seems to be a pretty clear precursor/analogue to the story of Jesus, and therefore something that had to be quashed.

I still think that something in our culture is very responsive to what there is in this holiday of its pagan roots. It also seems to me that Christmas like Thanksgiving and now Halloween become excuses for gluttony, greed, avarice, self indulgence, over spending... and other not really very nice things. If you want to try and opt out, that's well and good, but also very difficult. Celebrating life, love, family and friends can involve drinking and partying and eating and gifts, but one can still reign it in. Do you owe it to Walmart to shop like an idiot to get them into the black for year end and keep their shareholders happy? Obviously not. Do you owe it to yourself to reflect on life and to enjoy the company of your friends and family? Much more so. Do you need a religious framework to do that? Do you need the consumerist glut? That's your personal choice. Mine is that I don't need either.

BTW. It seems to me that Barry has been one of the calmest, wisest posters on these boards for a long time now. His posts are always worth looking at and I think the one above is especially instructive. I hope everyone had a chance to read it.

 

[John in Covina]

September 28, 2006 SUNY SPONSORS SATANISM
This isn’t higher education—it’s an obscene assault on Christianity.”

*****
This addresses several questions:
Are all religions equal?

If they are in direct opposition to each other such as this, is allowing for this "freedom of expression, religion stance" and being neutral on the subject, or being silent on it, allowing evil to openly exist?

I wonder about what it is that they are teaching their children in the views of tolerance?

Is this simply a case of when your ox is gored?

 

[Elaina]

I typed a long rant/rave/explanation. I deleted it. Does it matter? Probably not. What it boils down to is really simple. I couldn't post it without violating my own personal code of conduct concerning religion. So I typed another long rant/rave/explanation.

I don't knock on doors. Anyone who is interested in what I follow is welcome to ask me/come to church/come over. I don't think my religion is better then yours, I don't preach that you're going to go to hell unless you believe in what I do, and I teach my son that being a good Christian isn't telling others they suck because they're not Catholic/Greek Orthodox/Methodist (or where ever he went that week). It's about being tolerant, understanding, compassionate, loving and a good citizen. It's not about war, passing judgment, or acting an ass in the name of God/Allah/(insert what you want here).

I've met more tolerant people that weren't Christians to be honest. What it boils down to is really simple: You have the right to believe/act/say whatever you want. You have the right to make people feel like dirt, put the fear of God into them and interpret the Bible however you choose. You have the right to tell a pagan they suck and are going to burn, baby, burn. You have the right to protest anything that isn't what you personally believe. But so do they.

I personally prefer to do the religious thing as a sharing of information. Is there good in Islam? Absolutely. There is good in Paganism, Hinduism and Buddhism. I learned it by being tolerant, open minded and sharing information respectfully. But they too learned from me. I just don't believe in this whole debate of "I'm better then you are" and I don't believe that one should be excluded from the other. Or that because one (such as Christianity) should be excluded for fear it offends. Frankly, something is going to offend everyone at some point.

Am I offended that Christmas is now a Holiday season? No. Why? Because to me is IS Christmas, but in the act of following what my God teaches me, I can look with understanding and love that other people that don't believe in what I do is included in what is a joyous and happy occasion. It's peace and earth and good will toward men, not toward Christians only. I recognize that in the 25 years since I was in Kindergarten that the children are now culturally and religiously diverse groups. My son plays with children of all races, colors, creeds and religions. He does so comfortably, shares what he did in Sunday school with them, and in turn gets told what happens at Temple, at Mosque, and learns the path of enlightenment from the others. He learns something all year 'round what the whole of December is about: love of fellow man.

I can't look at it with fear and anger that Christmas is more homogonized toward everyone now. I can look at it and be grateful that as times have changed, we are developing a more tolerant group of people that will be used to the idea ev ereryone is different. Perhaps this blending will prevent future Holy Wars and make the world a happier place to be.

 

[Lincsong]

So here I am in college at the University of Hawaii and I'm getting ready to catch a flight back to California for Christmas vacation. One of my friends and his girlfriend knock on my door with a Christmas present. "Merry Christmas" they say. I looked at them and said "thanks, but you're Buddhist why are you giving me a Christmas present?" Their response; "well, we know you celebrate Christmas, New Years Day is more important for us but we still exchange gifts on Christmas we just don't get into the religous aspect of it". For the past 18 years we've been exchanging Christmas presents. I went to their Buddhist wedding. No one has been offended.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

I don't think I need to give examples of the knocking on the door, but here are my other two examples in more detail:

1. Central London.
A man with a megaphone stands at Piccadilly Circus every day, exhorting people with the catchphrase "Be a winner, not a sinner!" He used to stand at Oxford Circus, but was finally complained about enough that he was banned from that location. Somebody else stands there now. The disturbing thing is that I have heard reports of him making inappropriate comments to young ladies walking by if their outfits were not modest enough to suit his taste, which was apparently what led to the complaints.

2. Various locations.
Protests at medical facilities continue. I can't find the example I wanted from a few months back, where the clinic had set up a fundraising drive getting people to sponsor them a certain amount per demonstrator, but this report covering the time up to 2004 will give an indication that the problem continues to exist.

Putting my own political and spiritual views aside as best I can for a moment, I feel that if religion is to be taught in state schools then an equal amount of time should be given to each of the major faiths. I see nothing wrong with having an idea about what others believe - quite the opposite, in fact, since I believe that sharing knowledge respectfully benefits us all. Consideration is key.

I can't say that I approve of the FCoS website, but it's something you have to go looking for. I do know members of the Church of Satan (from which FCoS is a splinter), and find them to be intelligent, reasonable people who wouldn't dream of trying to convert me to their point of view. I can say the same about my Christian friends, and my Muslim friends, and my atheist and agnostic friends, and my pagan friends and...

...and I'm quite happy to discuss theology and philosophy with them, and they with me. We simply accept each other's differences. I'm a big fan of the idea that we are all climbing the same mountain, and it is simply a matter of which route we have chosen.

The nature of one's chosen spiritual practice isn't the issue for me, it is the method by which it is practised. Where we see extreme fundamentalism, I see a religion of itself, where the rhetoric is set dressing and the precepts of kindness and decency handed down in the core faith have been forgotten. I dare not paint a faith one colour because an individual who claims it has commited an atrocity, because to do that is to become as bad as them.

Why does this have to be about scoring points? Can't we discuss this reasonably like civilised adults?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Four hundred years after Christ was born it was determined that December 25 would be the day to celebrate his birth in an attempt to eclipse other pagan rituals that took place on the same day. Celebrations of Mithras, Attis and Dionyssius (Saturnalia) all most generlly fell on the 25th - thought to be the day that daytime began to get longer and the nights shorter, thus celebrated as the birthday of the sun (son), which was key to the pagan celebrations. The date was selected as a political move by the 4th C leaders of the Christian church. Attis is particualry interesting as this myth seems to be a pretty clear precursor/analogue to the story of Jesus, and therefore something that had to be quashed.

I still think that something in our culture is very responsive to what there is in this holiday of its pagan roots. It also seems to me that Christmas like Thanksgiving and now Halloween become excuses for gluttony, greed, avarice, self indulgence, over spending... and other not really very nice things. If you want to try and opt out, that's well and good, but also very difficult. Celebrating life, love, family and friends can involve drinking and partying and eating and gifts, but one can still reign it in. Do you owe it to Walmart to shop like an idiot to get them into the black for year end and keep their shareholders happy? Obviously not. Do you owe it to yourself to reflect on life and to enjoy the company of your friends and family? Much more so. Do you need a religious framework to do that? Do you need the consumerist glut? That's your personal choice. Mine is that I don't need either.

BTW. It seems to me that Barry has been one of the calmest, wisest posters on these boards for a long time now. His posts are always worth looking at and I think the one above is especially instructive. I hope everyone had a chance to read it.

I understand your points...and I'm sure many others feel the same. I don't think a religious framework is needed to enjoy or participate in what you suggest. However..for many of us that joy remains a celibration of particular greater reason even among the flaws and hype. Otherwise,it is just..or only a party for ourselves. That's fine....but portraying those who may take "Christmas" more literally as frivolous or needless may also seem offensive to many. Sure it's personal choice. It's not demanded that when you look upon a protrayal of Jesus that you must accept his claims as your own personal beliefs.....but..must I take the picture down to accommodate?
HD

 

["Doc" Devereux]

I am not trying to convince anybody here, just trying to give some insights as to WHY someone could feel compelled to warn you.

Personally I want that insight. I do not dispute the motives, only the methods.

 

[deanglen]

***
Actually, as a Lutheran, when the Jehova's Witness or the traveling elders for the LDS show up, I am tempted to tell them where they are off track, from the Lutheran view. I just politely send them on their way and admire them for their steadfastness in their faith and hope the Gospel gets thru to them as it should for all Christians.

Lutheran? You ,too? That makes three Loungers I know of, one being myself! Blessed Advent!

dean

 

[John in Covina]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]Personally I want that insight. I do not dispute the motives, only the methods.[/QUOTE]
*****
I am not for an "in your face" type of "intervention." Door knocking and confrontation tends to make people ill at ease, it is not beneficial for solicitor or the recipiant. SHouting at people and using megaphones is usually not much of a draw.

Where I am at we get postcards sometime from local churches, if they are having a special event. On radio and tv there are advertisments for a play put on by the Crystal Cathedral that is called "the Glory of Christmas" down in Orange County. Would these advertisements be considered offensive?

When the county fair is underway, some churches may have booths there,is that offensive?

What would a religious show be like if it tried to do the Dr. Phil thing?

 

[Fletch]

[quote="Doc" Devereux]Why does this have to be about scoring points? Can't we discuss this reasonably like civilised adults?[/quote]Being civilized is no longer a high priority for many adults. In our current cultural climate, it comes too close to being effete. A lot of us nowadays prefer brutal simplicity.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

*****
I am not for an "in your face" type of "intervention." Door knocking and confrontation tends to make people ill at ease, it is not beneficial for solicitor or the recipiant. Shouting at people and using megaphones is usually not much of a draw.

Where I am at we get postcards sometime from local churches, if they are having a special event. On radio and tv there are advertisments for a play put on by the Crystal Cathedral that is called "the Glory of Christmas" down in Orange County. Would these advertisements be considered offensive?

When the county fair is underway, some churches may have booths there,is that offensive?

What would a religious show be like if it tried to do the Dr. Phil thing?

No, I don't think either of those examples are offensive. They give me the opportunity to look, consider and act upon my interest or lack thereof. What's important is the choice, and to my mind that satisfies the edict to 'spread the word' while allowing those to whom the word is being spread a chance to decide for themselves if they are willing to hear it. Why preach to someone who does not listen freely?

But again, we're digressing. All faiths deserve to be treated equally, in my opinion, since they are equally true to those who practise them. I say this in the full knowledge that many of those faiths are of the opinion that I'm going to spend eternity suffering a very great deal for the beliefs I hold in this life, and that some practitioners have historically made a pretty good go of visiting that suffering upon those like me before it was time for the big judgement.

Being civilized is no longer a high priority for many adults. In our current cultural climate, it comes too close to being effete. A lot of us nowadays prefer brutal simplicity.

It is regrettable that brutality and simplicity have their times and places. It is even more regrettable that they come out when we are trying to understand each other's viewpoints and explain our own.

 

[Viola]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.

I don't celebrate Christmas. But I respect it as a religious holiday.

I buy my Christian friends Christmas presents. It'd be pretty silly to buy them
"holiday presents" as if it just occurred to me to give them presents in December for no reason at all.

That said, I wouldn't want my kids participating in a Christmas pageant and I'd be pretty pissy with the public school that did one. That's for parochial school.

Viola