Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[Maj.Nick Danger]

It's not religious anymore- not in mass produced and shiny America. The holiday has become about mass consumption of gifts, food, and even goodwill in the name of thinking of others. But I have to ask the purpose- giving over someone to their ideals of want- the latest they can't live without- is that not promoting some deeper desire than that of the soul? To me, the holiday is a spiritual one- and I know there are many people out there of many denominations and religions that still celebrate it as such- but are we, as a culture, based anymore on religion? Definately not. And in our quest to make a "holiday" accessable to everyone we have changed it into a feast of snowflakes, trees, ornaments, and presents with Santa as the patron saint of materialism.

Harsh, I know, but that's my opinion.

You're right. I've only just read the first few posts up to this point, but your's hits the proverbial nail on the head. Sadly, it's all about the shiny bling and not about the true Spirit of Christmas which is the Spirit of giving not greed.

 

[Lauren]

Thank you! And I adore the avitar lol

 

[jake_fink]

I think it's very simple really...it's called Christ-mas.....not secular-mas.
It's a Christain holiday, not a Jewish or Muslim holiday. They have their own holy holidays and we have ours, simple as that.
Could you imagine in this PC world demanding Jews and Muslims "tone down" their celebrations and make theirs more PC secular, I don't think so.
It's time as Christians we stand up for our own traditions and tell everyone else to go kiss a duck.

Blessed are the bolshy: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Thank you! And I adore the avitar lol

Aww,...you're most welcome.
This old avatar is just something I picked up on the internet some time ago, and I quite like it too,...

 

[Doh!]

Interesting discussion (and I’m glad it hasn’t been shut down for being too political). Just yesterday, I got into an email exchange with a co-worker over celebrating “The Holidays” vs. Christmas: I kiddingly mentioned that I was going to turn a Lindsay Lohan(!) quote into this year’s Christmas card and he replied, “Don’t send me one – I don’t like reading long Holiday cards.” I assured him it wouldn’t be a problem because I don’t send out “Holiday” cards – I send Christmas cards. He then went on some tirade about how his wife is Jewish and if I were to give them a card it would automatically leave her out (note that we’re actually good friends and were just trying to push each other’s buttons).

But it actually raised a new, annual annoyance of mine: like it or not, the 25th of December is called “Christmas.” Displaying “Holiday” trees for sale in K-Mart is just silly – they’re called Christmas trees. Much in the same way you don’t have to be a practicing pagan to enjoy Halloween, I don’t think Christians are the only ones allowed to celebrate Christmas. But jeez, at the very least let’s call it by its proper name, people!

That said, I can absolutely understand why K-Mart et al. stay away from the word “Christmas” – they want to push as much merchandise as possible, so if they risk even offending just one customer, they won’t. Of course, if somebody is truly offended by the word, maybe K-Mart doesn’t want them as a customer anyway (yeah, right).

Oh, and for the record: I don’t have religious bone in my body; I just like the trappings of Christmas. er, the Holidays.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I do think that in the last decade the celebration of Christmas has slowly went beyond just over commercialization for the almighty dollar and has lost something else. Remember the movie "Holiday Inn"...? Santa and his entourage were there...but also the traditional Christmas songs about Christ's birth...and the nativity. During the '40-'50s toys,presents and the commercial end of it boomed. If I remember correctly,Xmas appeared in the mid '60s. That phrase did upset many...but it caught on through indifference as a catchy new phrase. No matter that Christ was xed out. Who would really mean THAT..or take it so seriously?...besides...much simpler to write the phrase out. The traditional Christmas displays were still there...Santa and Christ. Afterall...it was a holiday celebrating Christ's birth..reguardless that Santa brought the presents. Religious holidays of different beliefs fell around Christmas,also. They,too,were celebrated with their own symbols and displays. Not as big on Dec 25 as Christ's day,however. There was no doubt who most were acknowleding on that day. For many Christ...and the little ones...of courseSanta,as well.
We oftened shopped in Indianapolis to see the depatment store window displays. Nativity scenes..the wisemen...angels and star...Santa's workshop...toy trains. Several years ago we decided to walk the circle in Indianapolis...enjoy the hot apple cider from the cart venders..and check out the displays. Huh...? what happened? Now there were only mechanical ice skating scenes of Happy Holidays and special "Sales". My how Christmasy! We did see green lightup Holiday trees on the lightposts,tho. What happened to the wisemen...and even ole jolly St. Nick?? Where were the added Muslim Cresents?...Mohigan Indian great spirit blankets?......Brass Buddist statues?....colorful African ceremonial robes? Etc,Etc! The cry of the deprived few....musta evolved into something else. An empty window...except for a bright red "sale" sign with a robot iceskater whirling around it. Did someone mention a "secular" movement? Happy Winter Holiday just doesn't seem as warm and spiritual as Merry Christmas....or near as magical. Some of us have become so apologetic...that we let a few others always champion a new cause. Read it into age old documents and somehow sell it as beneficial changes for us all.
It was never "demanded' that one must celibrate Christs birth...or be a Christian to enjoy the festivities. However,again,it was designated as "Christmas".
I still say...why not just add a holiday for those who hollar "unfair!" A secular day off work..to do absolutely nothing! Don't hafta buy presents...make a dinner...put up lights...nothin! Get fancy and call it "Nothin Unfair Day!" More time to reread the constitution...and search through founding father's letters to make sure more cold unholy holidays can be fanagled onto the calendar.
Gee...hope I didn't offend very many...
HD

 

[Elaina]

Well, I'm hearing "take the holiday to it's root!" Fine. It's called Yule. Pagan's created it. That Christmas tree? Happened to of been a symbol of paganism long before, called The Great Oak, and used to change the pagans from the oak to the more Christians symbolical triangle of a fir, but revering the same object: a tree. Christians adopted the pagan holidays to accomodate Chrisitan ones, and took many of the traditions to make it more acceptable to get those pesky pagans on over to Mass. Santa Claus? Go read any history: he has no place on Christmas, December 6th for the Orthodox, or December 5th for the rest, is St. Nick's day, patron saint of the poor and children, and when the festival is, routinely called Winter Festivals in Russia, that ripped off a pagan's children's day around the solstice. Quit eating Chritmas ham, it once was a ritual to a Scandavian god. There are a ton more if you look.

Fact is nearly all the Christian holidays were assilimated from Pagan ones, and they left them alone to get the Christian numbers up.

While I celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday in my own home, I'd also like to think of the Holiday season as just that: a holiday season of love, charity and happiness to everyone. I volunteer for the the Winter Solstice gathering, or Yule; I offer to work on Hanukkah for those that celebrate that; I sometimes help drive around widowed women in a group for Eid ul-Adha or pick them up from the airport on their way back from Hajj because I'm not Muslim, nor will it interfere in my praying or whatever else they do on the holiday...none of these I celebrate, save for Christmas. But everyone always gets up in arms that the holiday season is watered down from it's Christian roots and it seems to me that everyone while complaining fogets the season is all about being kind, being understanding, being charitable, being a good person. If you're upset that other non Christian groups also have their holidays at this time, and you're upset that Pagans decorate a Christmas tree (and call it their Holiday tree) and the commercialism of it, then don't patronize the store that's watering it down. Don't go out and get all into the commercialism of it. Put up your own nativity scene in your front yard. Offer to take someone to church to celebrate it as the birth of Christ. But just be aware Christians don't have the corner market on the holiday season. They didn't even create it.

 

[skwerl-hat]

Blessed are the bolshy: for they shall inherit the earth.

haha did he just call that guy a bolshevik? *stands on balcony with mousallini stabbing the air with index finger*



Seriously i get a laugh out of the attempts people go to to cover up christmas and make themselves feel better. HAPPY festivus "friendly day" goodwill towards kittens


no mixing up of words or public removal of nativity scenes will ever lessen my faith. so its not offense at all to me.'

 

[jamespowers]

Actually, there is no mention of the "seperation of church and state" in the Constitution, except in most interpretations of the "establishment" clause. The definitive statement of such comes from Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists Association and said - Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. He wrote it, he ought to know!

Now, as to your first paragraph, I think it was BOTH in terms of protection. These men saw first hand what a powerful and corrupt clergy can do to a system of govt. and they sincerely wished not to repeat it.

Oh, do I still get the Borso?

Very good. There is no mention of separation of church and state in the Constitution therefore no hat for you. You made my point for me.
Jefferson is one of only dozens of founding fathers and did not solely write the Bill of Rights you refer to. I am not going to get further into it here as it is beyond the scope of this thread but you can read other letters and comments of the forefathers---particularly John Adams who have similar views as mine in the first paragraph.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Sort of speaks for itself to me. No law favoring a religion or laws prohibiting people from believing as they wish in public or any place in America. [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Very good. There is no mention of separation of church and state in the Constitution therefore no hat for you. You made my point for me.
Jefferson is one of only dozens of founding fathers and did not solely write the Bill of Rights you refer to. I am not going to get further into it here as it is beyond the scope of this thread but you can read other letters and comments of the forefathers---particularly John Adams who have similar views as mine in the first paragraph.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Sort of speaks for itself to me. No law favoring a religion or laws prohibiting people from believing as they wish in public or any place in America. [huh]

Regards,

J

To paraphrase Lisa Simpson, quite loosely: "If you keep your prayer out of my school, I'll keep my science experiements out of your church."

Now, the question I ask you, in reply to your statement - No law favoring a religion or laws prohibiting people from believing as they wish in public or any place in America. - when are the rights of some more important than the rights of others? What gives one religion more rights than another, or those of no religion at all? Why must all be subjected to the beliefs of, maybe, the majority, simply because they are such?

As has been mentioned in a couple of posts above, the TRUE origin of Christmas, as we know it, is a conglomeration of many traditions, not just Christian ones. Who has decreed that the addition of other traditions to the holiday is prohibited? In fact, I'll go on to say that the inclusion of other DIVERSE ideas IS part of the Christmas tradition as it has grown over the past 2000 years! And, this will continue. Christ did not give proprietary rights on his beliefs and teachings only to Christians! He gave them to everybody! And the SPIRIT of his teachings can be found in those that partake of the spirit of the season. Isn't that enough?

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. - Sermon On The Mount

Whatever thy hand findest to do, do it with all thy heart. -Jesus Christ.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Having just returned from an expedition to the mall -- an experience not unlike being worked over by a jolly red-suited thug with a sock full of mistletoe -- I gotta say I'd really rather have Christmas become completely de-secularized and returned entirely to a solemn religious observation for those who adhere to Christian beliefs. That way it would be much easier for those of us who don't belong to any Christian faith to gracefully opt out of the celebrations without being denounced as Scrooges.

I very much enjoy giving gifts to close friends, and do so frequently thruout the year -- I don't need a special season of the year to do it. But I object terribly to the sort of social bludgeoning that goes on at this time of year, the way in which one is emotionally blackjacked into spending money one cannot afford to spend on presents for people one may not even particularly like, simply because they happen to be relatives -- all in the name of the Spirit of the Season, and the jingle jangle jingle of the cash register.

So for those of you who sincerely do observe Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ, may your season be filled with spiritual good cheer and rewarding reflection on your beliefs. But as for the folks who give us the Super Santa Sale-A-Bration and the Ho-Ho-Homungus Value Days, and the Mother-lode of Holiday Season Guilt, may they be boiled with their own pudding and buried with a stake of holly thru their hearts...

 

[jamespowers]

Now, the question I ask you, in reply to your statement - No law favoring a religion or laws prohibiting people from believing as they wish in public or any place in America. - when are the rights of some more important than the rights of others? What gives one religion more rights than another, or those of no religion at all? Why must all be subjected to the beliefs of, maybe, the majority, simply because they are such?

These are all red herring questions. The fact remains that there is no law against some feeling offended. If something offends you then don't look simple. I do it all the time.
No one is subject to anything because no one is a captive audience unless they allow themselves to be.
This is becoming a vicious circle. :deadhorse :kick:
People believe many things. I could care less as long as they don't turn that into a modern day crusade. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[Lauren]

Having just returned from an expedition to the mall -- an experience not unlike being worked over by a jolly red-suited thug with a sock full of mistletoe -- I gotta say I'd really rather have Christmas become completely de-secularized and returned entirely to a solemn religious observation for those who adhere to Christian beliefs. That way it would be much easier for those of us who don't belong to any Christian faith to gracefully opt out of the celebrations without being denounced as Scrooges.

I very much enjoy giving gifts to close friends, and do so frequently thruout the year -- I don't need a special season of the year to do it. But I object terribly to the sort of social bludgeoning that goes on at this time of year, the way in which one is emotionally blackjacked into spending money one cannot afford to spend on presents for people one may not even particularly like, simply because they happen to be relatives -- all in the name of the Spirit of the Season, and the jingle jangle jingle of the cash register.

So for those of you who sincerely do observe Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ, may your season be filled with spiritual good cheer and rewarding reflection on your beliefs. But as for the folks who give us the Super Santa Sale-A-Bration and the Ho-Ho-Homungus Value Days, and the Mother-lode of Holiday Season Guilt, may they be boiled with their own pudding and buried with a stake of holly thru their hearts...

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap Yay!!! Your post made my morning.

And heck, I'm a Christian and they still call me a Scrooge.

 

[jamespowers]

Having just returned from an expedition to the mall -- an experience not unlike being worked over by a jolly red-suited thug with a sock full of mistletoe -- I gotta say I'd really rather have Christmas become completely de-secularized and returned entirely to a solemn religious observation for those who adhere to Christian beliefs. That way it would be much easier for those of us who don't belong to any Christian faith to gracefully opt out of the celebrations without being denounced as Scrooges.

I very much enjoy giving gifts to close friends, and do so frequently thruout the year -- I don't need a special season of the year to do it. But I object terribly to the sort of social bludgeoning that goes on at this time of year, the way in which one is emotionally blackjacked into spending money one cannot afford to spend on presents for people one may not even particularly like, simply because they happen to be relatives -- all in the name of the Spirit of the Season, and the jingle jangle jingle of the cash register.

So for those of you who sincerely do observe Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ, may your season be filled with spiritual good cheer and rewarding reflection on your beliefs. But as for the folks who give us the Super Santa Sale-A-Bration and the Ho-Ho-Homungus Value Days, and the Mother-lode of Holiday Season Guilt, may they be boiled with their own pudding and buried with a stake of holly thru their hearts...

You said a mouthful there. :eusa_clap I agree completely. Thanks for putting this together.

Regards,

J

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Having just returned from an expedition to the mall -- an experience not unlike being worked over by a jolly red-suited thug with a sock full of mistletoe -- I gotta say I'd really rather have Christmas become completely de-secularized and returned entirely to a solemn religious observation for those who adhere to Christian beliefs. That way it would be much easier for those of us who don't belong to any Christian faith to gracefully opt out of the celebrations without being denounced as Scrooges.

I very much enjoy giving gifts to close friends, and do so frequently thruout the year -- I don't need a special season of the year to do it. But I object terribly to the sort of social bludgeoning that goes on at this time of year, the way in which one is emotionally blackjacked into spending money one cannot afford to spend on presents for people one may not even particularly like, simply because they happen to be relatives -- all in the name of the Spirit of the Season, and the jingle jangle jingle of the cash register.

So for those of you who sincerely do observe Christmas as a celebration of the birth of Christ, may your season be filled with spiritual good cheer and rewarding reflection on your beliefs. But as for the folks who give us the Super Santa Sale-A-Bration and the Ho-Ho-Homungus Value Days, and the Mother-lode of Holiday Season Guilt, may they be boiled with their own pudding and buried with a stake of holly thru their hearts...

But you seem to be forgetting a good portion of people - Those of US who love the idea and the spirit of the season - those of us who do not go to the malls, yet decorate their home; those of us who do not go wild with extravagant gifts, yet cherish the time spent with family that is not available to us the rest of the year; those of us who feel grateful for the gifts and challenges of the prior year, yet do so in private prayer or meditation and not via an organized religious event. Those of us who just love to put the star on the top of the tree, recognizing not just one aspect of its significance, but a whole plethora of meanings the lay below its twinkles! You quoted Dickens above. Let me add another from his classic -
I will honor Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.

There is a mid-ground here - an area where very, very many dwell. Again, it's not just about Christ or the Solstice or anything. It's about gratitude and love and, once again, beginnng anew. Now, what's wrong with that?

 

[Lauren]

If it were kept as the quote from Dickens, I see no problem. It's the motives behind the seeming good will that is a concern. I don't doubt that there are still people who get together with purity of heart to spend time with family and friends and give gifts- but I think it's hypocritical of a society to dictate when to do it rather than have it continue year round.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

These are all red herring questions. The fact remains that there is no law against some feeling offended. If something offends you then don't look simple. I do it all the time.
No one is subject to anything because no one is a captive audience unless they allow themselves to be.
This is becoming a vicious circle. :deadhorse :kick:
People believe many things. I could care less as long as they don't turn that into a modern day crusade. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

Well, a red herring statement deservers red herring rebuttals, as in this case! And, yes, there is no law against being offended. What I am saying, again, is that while the above is true, why go out of your way to look for said offense when, really, it doesn't exist at the magnitude that has been put forth? This whole Bill O'Reilly schtick about the "Attack on Christmas" is just sensationalized, ratings grabbing clap-trap! What is being perceived as an assault, and I've said this before, is simply change as it happens! If you look back over the history of this country you will find numerous instances of how 'change' was going to 'destroy the very fabric' of our society wether it be immigration (the Italians and the Irish), the Reds (the Red Scare of the early 1900's), the rise of Catholicism (which spawned the re-emergence of the KKK) to the EXACT SAME arguments being used today in the context of gay marriage, immigration - again, and this perceived attack on Christianity and Christmas. It is as it has been; a few using the specter of fear to induce a hysteria where, quite frankly, none needs to be! And those that propigate this kind of fear do so in order to further their, not OUR, benefits!

And, you know, what? We, America, has survived and flourished DESPITE all this and where lesser nations and peoples have not! THAT is the strength of our character. Yeah, we've changed - some for the better, some for the worse. But I truly believe that we, as a nation and a DIVERSE people, are capable of being, and continuing to be, one of the greatest socieities to ever adorn this planet. And if something as simple as how each American chooses to celebrate, or not celebrate, Christmas can bring that down, we, quite simply, don't deserve it.

From Matthew -
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[Roger]

I doubt very very highly that anyone is offended by the word "Christmas". The only one's making the big fuss are the loud mouthed ACLU types who are just bitter to begin with and have a chip on their shoulder. Those are things that are offensive. Is anyone's livelihood compromised by a store advertising a "Christmas Tree" or someone saying "Merry Christmas"? NO. Does it stop any of them from heating their homes? Washing their clothes? Feeding their mouths? NO NO NO NO! So what is the big deal? If some screwball school district can force American children to dress as Moslems for a week to become "sensitive" to Islam, then they sure as hell can have a "Christmas Pagaent" and "Christmas Dance" and not a "Winter Festival" or "Solstice Dance". I worked with a Jehovah once and he wouldn't go to a "Christmas Party" Big Deal! They don't celebrate anything to begin with so why did he have to make a big deal about the "Christmas Party"? Because he was a bitter little troll!

This isn't an argument about diversity, it's an argument about replacing words in order to further an agenda and goal.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

If it were kept as the quote from Dickens, I see no problem. It's the motives behind the seeming good will that is a concern. I don't doubt that there are still people who get together with purity of heart to spend time with family and friends and give gifts- but I think it's hypocritical of a society to dictate when to do it rather than have it continue year round.

That, dear one, has nothing to do with being a society - it simply has to do with human nature. We are just not capable of maintaining that state of mind year round - nothing would ever get done! Now, if we add one little lesson each time, make one little change for the better, carry one more warm and loving memory, then I truly believe that, yes, we are carrying Christmas in our hearts as best as our fragile human souls can!

And, might I suggest, do not look upon it as a dictated mandate that you must do so - but as an opportunity to simply enjoy doing so.

 

[Lauren]

Now, if we add one little lesson each time, make one little change for the better, carry one more warm and loving memory, then I truly believe that, yes, we are carrying Christmas in our hearts as best as our fragile human souls can!

I do, indeed, agree- but argue the term Christmas as it was made as a result of religious observances. If this is possible as humans, which I do indeed believe it is- not to perfection because that is unobtainable but to constantly be searching for the bettering of the self then I believe it is a good thing to do! But mass media in our country more than any other, I believe, make it an "in your face" message of goodwill and the rest of the year is focused on fullfilling the self. I understand that it is marketing- but they are certainly achieving their point!

And, might I suggest, do not look upon it as a dictated mandate that you must do so - but as an opportunity to simply enjoy doing so.

Certainly That's what I normally do. I do enjoy the holiday season because it is nice to spend time with friends and family- to have cooler weather and coffee or tea or whatnot- fireplaces, the like. And if the holidays are the reason for people becoming more readily available then I am thankful for it- I just wish we would continue it into the year and not just November and December.