CC41 - decoding the codes

[herringbonekid]

...and of course, the holy grail for CC41 hunters, the elusive double 11:

calm down, it's a scan from a book... i don't own it.

nothing is currently known about this label. nothing at all. it may in fact be a mistake, an urban myth or an elaborate prank.
but each one of us secretly yearns to open a jacket in a charity shop (preferably a charity shop as oppose to an over-priced vintage 'boutique') and see that ll 0 ll stitched neatly into the side seam of a moth-ball-smelling old tweed jacket we were only half-interested in.

for now, it remains like Charlie Bucket's golden ticket, just an unlikely dream.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Got one in a dress of The Baroness's. Ha! There is a book out there that has something to say about this label.

btw avedwards, I don't believe the CC41 rules restricted cloth use, just the price of the cloth …

bk

 

[herringbonekid]

These seem strange because no attempt seems to have been made to save cloth as they have cuffs, a flapped back pocket, pleats, side adjusters, belt loops and brace buttons. The only thing they lack is a watch pocket.

you have to remember that austerity restrictions on things like number of pockets and turn-ups etc were lifted after the war, which is when the majority of CC41 garments found today were made. all those 22" trouser bottomed DB suits with waistcoats ... late 40s !

if you find a suit with the narrower turn-up-free legs it's probably a war-time one.

 

[herringbonekid]

Got one in a dress of The Baroness's. Ha!

why am i not surprised ?

...is it just for the Sheila's then ? i want to see it in a man's garment or i'll never be happy !

 

[avedwards]

btw avedwards, I don't believe the CC41 rules restricted cloth use, just the price of the cloth …

bk

I understand that, but it seems odd that something made during the wartime years seems to make such a wasteful use of cloth. HBK's explanation of my trousers possibly being post-war seems plausible though.

I hope the code in my trousers corresponds with other grey flannel clothing to help your data collection.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Nope, Spec. No. 226 is a new one. I'll add it to the database.

bk

 

[Cobden]

Utility regulations, it seems, regulated price and material quality. Austerity regulations appear to be the regulations that regulated cloth use, suit cut, etc. Thus an austerity suit would use very little wool and probably would be made of utility cloth, but a suit made of utility cloth need not be made to an austerity pattern (this is going by some excellent research Ben has done on this and other forums, and makes a lot of sense to me).

Having read various descriptions (from sources of often dubious quality, I hasten to add) of what the austerity measures were for suits (no pleats, no cuff buttons, no more then three pockets, no turnups, single breasted only), and compared this to my complete and utter inability to find suits or images of suits made during the war that appear to adhere to these regulations, it strikes me that there are a few possibilities:
1) these austerity measures where very short lived, perhaps just during the winter of 43/44 when there was a severe wool shortage (none of the sources I've read seem to put a date on the introduction on such restrictions);
2) they were completely ignored and unenforced (which seems rather unlikely)
3) it was never intended that austerity suits were the only option - perhaps they were designed purely as a cheap suit and were subject to strict (or stricter) pricing regulations, or perhaps they used fewer coupons
4) a mistake has been made between a proposed scheme and an introduced scheme - the austerity suit was on the drawing board but never rolled out, and authors have been mistaking this for the utility scheme, which, as we know, was most certainly legislated.

Number three strikes me as the most plausible, especially if austerity suits used less coupons - however, annoyingly, I can only find the list of coupons needed from from when clothes rationing was introduced in 1941 (which predates CC41, let alone any austerity measures which I suspect came in later still).

I appreciate once again I am hypothesising, and at this stage have nothing to go on apart from "thinking", but it might open up a few avenues of research

 

[Miss Sis]

We have to try and take into context some of the anecdotal eveidence as well. I apologise for keep referring back to Hansard, but, at the moment it is the only official source of wrtitten info appataining to Austerity and Utility we have. However, we know what politicians can be like!

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1944/apr/06/austerity-suits#S5CV0398P0_19440406_HOC_278

This is very long, however, it talks of the Austerity Suit regulations. It appears that at some point in 1944 the regulations were lifted and 'freestyle' suits could be made and bought. They also talk of Austerity and Utility suits, and suits made of Utility cloth. A lot of the Austerity suits remained unsold until the retailers slashed the prices and the BoT lowered the coupon value for the Austerity suit.

 

[Louise Anne]

...and of course, the holy grail for CC41 hunters, the elusive double 11:

calm down, it's a scan from a book... i don't own it.

nothing is currently known about this label. nothing at all. it may in fact be a mistake, an urban myth or an elaborate prank.
but each one of us secretly yearns to open a jacket in a charity shop (preferably a charity shop as oppose to an over-priced vintage 'boutique') and see that ll 0 ll stitched neatly into the side seam of a moth-ball-smelling old tweed jacket we were only half-interested in.

for now, it remains like Charlie Bucket's golden ticket, just an unlikely dream.

Just a very quick look on the VFG forum they talking about the double 11
http://forums.vintagefashionguild.org/threads/utility-c11-label.37538/#post-361455

there is a lot more info about the CC41,
this would be a good referance book
Forties Fashion Siren Suits to the new Look
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forties-Fashion-Siren-Suits-Look/dp/0500288976/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

 

[Miss Sis]

The announcement about freestyle suits. 1st of Feb 1944 restrictions are lifted.

This agreed with HBKs point that the majority of CC41 items we see are latter 1940s.

Men's Suits (Restrictions and Coupon Pointing)
HC Deb 25 January 1944 vol 396 cc523-4 523

§ 33. Mr. Ivor Thomas

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the changes recently made in the U.S.A., Canada and Australia with regard to men's suits, he will consider relaxing any of the restrictions on suits in this country.

§ Mr. Dalton

These restrictions, since they were introduced in March, 1942, have resulted in a considerable saving of cloth and labour. But a new situation has been created by the intention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, after consultation with other Departments concerned including my own and as part of his plans for clothing soldiers on demobilisation, to issue suits which are free from these restrictions. Orders will, I understand, shortly be placed, and I am advised that it would not be practicable in these conditions to maintain the restrictions on the manufacture of suits for the general public. I have, therefore, decided that men's suits may again be made without any restriction on styles as from the 1st February, but may not be supplied to the public until the 1st March. I have also decided that the coupon pointing of the "non-austerity" suit shall be 26, while the "austerity" suit, as from 1st February, will be down-pointed from 26 to 20 coupons, the pointing for coat, waistcoat and trousers each being reduced by two coupons.

524

§ Mr. Thomas

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us will now be able to buy a new suit for the first time during the war and that we are very grateful to him?

§ Mr. Gallacher

Why has the Minister waited until I have bought a suit without pockets, before bringing in this change?

§ Mr. Dalton

The retailers will be very grateful to my hon. Friend for helping to clear the stocks.

§ Mr. Thorne

Will my hon. Friend and myself be able to get pockets inside our waistcoats?

 

[Miss Sis]

Men's Suits (Raw Wool)
HC Deb 31 March 1949 vol 463 cc137-8W 138W

§ 77. Mr. Piratin

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the value of the raw wool material in a man's good quality utility suit; and what proportion in value of the whole suit this constitutes.

§ Mr. H. Wilson

The maximum price for the top utility suit in cloth 209F, the best utility worsted suiting, is £11 4s. 5d. (ready-made). The cost of the raw wool used in the manufacture of the cloth for this suit would be about 40s. to 45s., according to the type used. This represents 18 to 20 per cent. of the retail price of the suit.

 

[Two Types]

Has anyone ever trawled through the files on utility clothing held in the National Archives at Kew? I am sure those files would hold plenty of relevant information.

On the point raised by some about wartime restrictions on turn-ups etc, I did discuss the subject with someone who was a teenage postman between 1939 and 1943 in London. He said the solution was simple: when you ordered the trousers, the tailor wrote down your inside leg measurement as three inches longer than it really was. He cut the trousers, then you took it home and turned them up and stitched them in place. Hey presto, trousers with turn ups, all (sort of) within the regulations.

 

[Miss Sis]

Flannel Trousers (Price)
HC Deb 19 July 1949 vol 467 c1161 1161

§ 49. Mr. Hurd

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the factors that justify the increase from 32s. last year to 69s. 1d. now in the price fixed for 209F men's utility grey flannel trousers.

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Edwards)

The retail ceiling price for men's utility trousers made of cloth 209F was increased from 62s. 6d.—not 32s.—to 69s. 1d. in July of last year. The increase in price was due to the removal of the subsidy on the cloth.

§ Mr. Hurd

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that utility flannel trousers could be bought for 32s. last year and that they now cost the price which I have mentioned?

§ Mr. Edwards

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong if he supposes that trousers of this quality could have been bought last year for 32s. The lowest ceiling price for this quality—[Laughter]—I should say, of course, the controlled price—was 51s. 9d.

§ Mr. Henry Strauss

Is the "ceiling price" what used to be called the maximum price?

§ Mr. Edwards

Both expressions are in use.

§ Mr. Stanley

It is a deep-seated maladjustment.

 

[herringbonekid]

there is a lot more info about the CC41,
this would be a good referance book
Forties Fashion Siren Suits to the new Look
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forties-Fashion-Siren-Suits-Look/dp/0500288976/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

good timing... the chapters on the the Utility scheme in that book have the best overview i've found so far. i've summarised the main points below:





-before the Utility scheme was introduced there was a large gulf between the quality of expensive and cheap clothing.

-the Utility Clothing scheme was a system for making clothes out of well-made textiles and selling them at a regulated price without purchase tax.

-it came into force in the first week of February 1942.

-the CC41 logo (which many thought, before the invention of Pac-Man, resembled two cheeses) was designed by Reginald Shipp.

-in 1942 50% of all clothes produced came under the Utility scheme (so obviously it wasn't enforced across the board). by the end of the war it was up to 85 %.

-in 1942 the Incorporated Society of London Fashion Designers (Inc.Soc. for short) was set up. it banded together many top designers to coordinate shows, develop standards of workmanship, represent collective interests to the government and press, and protect original fashion designs. the designers actually produced designs specifically for utility scheme garments (mainly women's of course). the designers were:
Norman Hartnell, Bianca Mosca, Digby Morton, Peter Russell, Victor Stiebel, Elspeth Champcommunal of Worth, Hardy Amies, Edward Molyneux and and Charles Creed.

-in May 1942 these designers were commissioned to produce suits, coats and dresses that used Utility cloth and conformed to austerity* regulations governing the amount of fabric permitted per garment. although individual designers were not credited in these designs, the resulting designs helped raise the reputation of the scheme in the public's eye.

-in 1946 Inc.Soc. designers produced clothes for an exhibition at the V&A of clothes for the export market entitled 'Britain Can Make It'. the clothes involved more fabric and greater detail than those for the domestic market. post-war clothing exports increased by five times that of pre-war exports.

-Inc.Soc. continued to operate throughout the 1950s, lost influence in the 1960s and disbanded in the 1970s.




*austerity directives were introduced around the same time as the Utility scheme to limit the amount of materials used in production (bespoke and luxury items were still permitted and subject to 33% luxury sales tax).

-supposedly the men's regulations restricted trouser circumference to 19 inches, no turn-ups, no elastic in waistband, no zips, no raglan sleeves, no tail coats, no pleated backs or half belts, no double breasted suit jackets.

-restrictions began to be lifted after the war. turn-ups were permitted again in February 1944, and double breasted suits by the end of the war.

 

[Louise Anne]

good timing... the chapters on the the Utility scheme in that book have the best overview i've found so far. i've summarised the main points below:

.

I have not read the book shame on me! , Jonathan seams to know as much as any one about this subject, and he always happy to answer question over on the VFG forum! a very nice man indeed.
[h=3][/h]

 

[herringbonekid]

Why has the Minister waited until I have bought a suit without pockets, before bringing in this change?

^ funny stuff !

p.s i have two suit SB jackets without cuff buttons, cuff, or sham buttonholes... just a 'tube' arm.
one is bespoke (which makes no sense at all). the other is unlabelled but looks mass produced.

curiouser and curiouser... especially as cuff buttons aren't even mentioned on the austerity limitations list.

hang on...

edit: in the book mentioned above it does say "no turn ups / cuffs"... i took that 'cuffs' to mean the Americanised 'cuffed' trouser bottoms, but maybe he does mean sleeve cuffs ? if so, then i have two war-time austerity suit jackets.

 

[Cobden]

Just to summarise and to see if I've understood some of the above correctly: It appears then that the austerity regulations were only in place from mid-1942 to early1944, after which time both austerity and freestyle suits were available - with austerity suits using fewer coupons. HBK, sounds indeed like you have an austerity suit jacket - which at least goes to demonstrate that these things do exist!

 

[herringbonekid]

It appears then that the austerity regulations were only in place from mid-1942 to early1944, after which time both austerity and freestyle suits were available - with austerity suits using fewer coupons.

my understanding is that once regulations were lifted after the war (for clothing) there would be no further use for austerity restrictions... after all why would the public choose no turn-ups etc once they were allowed again ?

according to anecdotal evidence, a lot of men after the war weren't happy with the double breasted suits they were offered as they saw them as pre-war and old fashioned, and they were probably dying for something that looked fresher and newer. of course that didn't really happen until the mid 1950s in menswear in Britain.


by the way, i'd like to know more about demob suit markings as oppose to CC41 'civilian' labels. does anyone have anything to offer (or should we save that for another thread ) ?

 

[Miss Sis]

Cobden,

I agree, it seems that 1944 was when the regulations were lifted, it seems February with a March release to the public.. A lot of the suits were made, hence the debate the MPs are having on what to do with them, ie, send them to countries that need aid.

HBK, I think that would and should be a whole new thread. I do not know a great deal about them. It seems we have all different types, from paper labels to cloth labels similar to those found in Battledress.

Kindest regards

Ben

 

[herringbonekid]

Some work by Inc Soc designers:

a few of the designers of the aforementioned Inc Soc and their creations:

Hardy Amies:

1947 suit by Hardy Amies:

wartime restrictions were clearly out the window by the time he made this in 1950:

Norman Hartnell:

1942 outfit by Victor Stiebel:

Edward Molyneux:

Utility suit by Charles Creed:

sorry chaps, but it was all about the womenswear.


​