Cads on the subway

[LizzieMaine]

I wonder how much of this is all a consequence of the read-your-paper/put-your-head-down/don't-make-eye-contact approach that city people adopt? Every time I'm in a city and riding public transport I'm very aware of this, because it's not the way people are in small towns at all. When you isolate yourself in a protective bubble of Ignore like that, it's hard to have any consciousness or consideration for anyone else.

 

[klind65]

Here's what was asked by KLind



This implies that men ought to still offer their seats to women because women are delicate and physically inferior to men. Most women I know do not wish to be thought of as physically inferior to men. They want to be thought of as equals. Thus, the question of equality is built into the thread. Let's not get this mixed up with manners, such as offering a seat to the elderly. Is it bad manners for a man NOT to offer his seat to another man his age? Of course not. And if women are equal, as they should be thought, it's not bad manners NOT to offer them a seat either. In fact, I could see how most women would take such an offer as an offense. As they used to say in the Virginia Slims ads, 'You've come a long way, baby,' but it's a hell of a lot longer when you don't have seat.


Regards,

Jack

To mitigate some of the confusion, perhaps a woman should wear some kind of symbol indicating her preference for traditional or modern propriety! No need to post sarcastic replies, people - I'm just kidding.

 

[Elaina]

Interesting. I guess I was right about the difference in location.

Only if you live in a very rural area. The nearest city is 3 hours away.

 

[klind65]

I wonder how much of this is all a consequence of the read-your-paper/put-your-head-down/don't-make-eye-contact approach that city people adopt? Every time I'm in a city and riding public transport I'm very aware of this, because it's not the way people are in small towns at all. When you isolate yourself in a protective bubble of Ignore like that, it's hard to have any consciousness or consideration for anyone else.

Perspicacious comments ( yes folks, I am a logophile) and true to be sure. I wish I could move back to my small town - well, smaller city, anyway.

 

[Senator Jack]

When you isolate yourself in a protective bubble of Ignore like that, it's hard to have any consciousness or consideration for anyone else.

As a native New Yorker, having grown up in the bad times of the 70s (bad in capitals, italics, red letters, and thrice underlined), I can tell you this stems from a matter of survival. The mere act of eye contact could have got you into a lot of trouble back then and so the gothamites had to start burying their heads in the newsprint. Yeah, we have that safer city now, but the old instincts remain.

Regards,

Jack

 

[Paisley]

I wonder how much of this is all a consequence of the read-your-paper/put-your-head-down/don't-make-eye-contact approach that city people adopt? Every time I'm in a city and riding public transport I'm very aware of this, because it's not the way people are in small towns at all. When you isolate yourself in a protective bubble of Ignore like that, it's hard to have any consciousness or consideration for anyone else.

Around here (Denver), people tend not to make eye contact with strangers unless they want to talk to them. And I usually don't want to talk to them.

Yes, I wear a wide brimmed hat in the summer and read a book on the bus--I can't even see who's sitting next to me. But when a disabled person or someone with a stroller gets on, the lift beeps or the whole front of the bus goes down, which gets my attention. If I'm in the way, I get up and move.

Getting out of the way is a nice thing to do if it's done for the right reasons. I wouldn't assume that a man who jumps out of his seat to make room for a good-looking woman is doing so out of Victorian sensibilities.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I appreciate a free exchange of ideas including those different from my own. But is it necessary to be unkind?

Look at your post that this is referring to .... unknind???? Hardly, my statement was tempered with a great deal of kindness and a request. Clearly you are oblivious to what you have done. You attacked others without provocation or hesitation and expect to be rewarded and taken seriously. [huh]

 

[Caity Lynn]

Originally Posted by Senator Jack
Here's what was asked by KLind



This implies that men ought to still offer their seats to women because women are delicate and physically inferior to men. Most women I know do not wish to be thought of as physically inferior to men. They want to be thought of as equals. Thus, the question of equality is built into the thread. Let's not get this mixed up with manners, such as offering a seat to the elderly. Is it bad manners for a man NOT to offer his seat to another man his age? Of course not. And if women are equal, as they should be thought, it's not bad manners NOT to offer them a seat either. In fact, I could see how most women would take such an offer as an offense. As they used to say in the Virginia Slims ads, 'You've come a long way, baby,' but it's a hell of a lot longer when you don't have seat.


Regards,

Jack



I will restate what I have said many, many times. 'Who ever decided that women should be liberated and wanted to be equal, didn't talk to THIS woman. I'm more than content to let men worry about the state the country is in and make the living, while I sit at home taking care of the house and children and doting on the husband who keeps me very nicely at home.'

and I'm not even one of the dedicated vintage girls on here[huh]

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I will restate what I have said many, many times. 'Who ever decided that women should be liberated and wanted to be equal, didn't talk to THIS woman. I'm more than content to let men worry about the state the country is in and make the living, while I sit at home taking care of the house and children and doting on the husband who keeps me very nicely at home.'

and I'm not even one of the dedicated vintage girls on here[huh]

Caity

Women have been doing this since the beginning of time. I do not know a successful man, myself included, who has done it on his own whether is be a woman or otherwise.

Historically, woman have been treated like "chattel" or personal property of their husbands, fathers i.e. This meant no rights as people. No ability to sue or be sued in a court of law, no ability to make one's own decision about one's body. Strict adherence to the whims and desires of the "Master". Treated no better than a farm animal in the eyes of the law.

Thereby the use of the "vintage" here is quaint and by no means covers the struggles and suffering of those courageous woman who have gone before us and fought for those rights enjoyed by both sexes and other groups today.

It is more than about giving up a seat.

 

[Lily Powers]

Riding the fully packed Muni in San Francisco from midtown to North Beach, and a pregnant woman got onboard. She was standing at the front of the bus and the bus didn't move. After a couple of minutes, the driver announced, "This bus ain't movin' till the pregnant lady sits!" Much surrying at the front, and a seat was offered. Applause throughout the bus and off we went.

I will certainly give up my seat for an elderly person or someone frail who might need assistance. I don't mind standing - it feels good to be nice and sometimes a pleasant conversation blossoms with the person to whom I've offered my seat.

 

[Paisley]

I will restate what I have said many, many times. 'Who ever decided that women should be liberated and wanted to be equal, didn't talk to THIS woman. I'm more than content to let men worry about the state the country is in and make the living, while I sit at home taking care of the house and children and doting on the husband who keeps me very nicely at home.'

and I'm not even one of the dedicated vintage girls on here[huh]

Personally, I've enjoyed having the freedom to leave home at an early age, read widely, go to college, buy a house, earn, spend and invest my money as I see fit, spend my free time as I choose, and now, enjoy the things I've worked for. However, if someone prefers to not work outside the home, not read a newspaper, perhaps even become completely dependent on someone, that's still an option in 2009.

Not sure what this has to do with bus seats, though.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Personally, I've enjoyed having the freedom to leave home at an early age, read widely, go to college, buy a house, earn, spend and invest my money as I see fit, spend my free time as I choose, and now, enjoy the things I've worked for. However, if someone prefers to not work outside the home, not read a newspaper, perhaps even become completely dependent on someone, that's still an option in 2009.

Not sure what this has to do with bus seats, though.

For me it has to do with bus seats in the following way...

I -sure- as heck will tolerate the bus seat non giving up.....to be able to earn what I earn...and would even be cheerful about it if I got that other 25 cents on the dollar that my male working counterparts do. Hell, I might even give my seat up for able bodied men if that ever changed.

If the -equality- thing is what made the whole deferring to women in these sorts of things like door opening etc, end.... then its a freaking small price to pay.

 

[reetpleat]

To mitigate some of the confusion, perhaps a woman should wear some kind of symbol indicating her preference for traditional or modern propriety! No need to post sarcastic replies, people - I'm just kidding.

Not as crazy an idea as you might think. I think many men might appreciate it. Only thing is, do you have to choose for good, or are you allowed to take it off and put it on as the situation warrents?

I suppose men could wear one that says if they are traditional minded or not.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

For me it has to do with bus seats in the following way...

I -sure- as heck will tolerate the bus seat non giving up.....to be able to earn what I earn...and would even be cheerful about it if I got that other 25 cents on the dollar that my male working counterparts do. Hell, I might even give my seat up for able bodied men if that ever changed.

If the -equality- thing is what made the whole deferring to women in these sorts of things like door opening etc, end.... then its a freaking small price to pay.

I used to work for a very large financial institution that was know for being "woman friendly". The way I see it the glass ceiling was firmly in place. I made a great deal more than my female supervisors. I did not know anymore; I had less responsibility and more time to goof around and "talk shop" with the male managers.

I, however, felt the need to sue them based on the then nascent Family Leave Act....would you believe they said I was acting like a woman. The result they had to change their policy and I picked up a ton of clients in my private practice..lol lol

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I used to work for a very large financial institution that was know for being "woman friendly". The way I see it the glass ceiling was firmly in place. I made a great deal more than my female supervisors. I did not know anymore; I had less responsibility and more time to goof around and "talk shop" with the male managers.

I, however, felt the need to sue them based on the then nascent Family Leave Act....would you believe they said I was acting like a woman. The result they had to change their policy and I picked up a ton of clients in my private practice..lol lol

Hehe that's a lawyer for you.


But I agree...

And this is -not- me saying I am advocating -rude, unmannerly behavior-.

I am not.

But the only other option is to somehow force courteous behavior.

Legalised courtesy for me is like trying to believe the person at McDonalds is really and honestly wishing me a good day when they say it.

It makes -all- of it trite and ritualized into meaninglessness...as opposed to being able to smile when someone is genuinely courteous.

 

[LizzieMaine]

In 1942, my great-aunt Edith became, so far as we know, the first female longshoreman in Maine. After the war she became a foreman in a shoe factory. She was never, ever "dependent" on anyone.

And if some guy on a bus didn't offer her a seat when she needed one, she'd have pulled him up by his collar and decked him.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Hehe that's a lawyer for you.


But I agree...

And this is -not- me saying I am advocating -rude, unmannerly behavior-.

I am not.

But the only other option is to somehow force courteous behavior.

Legalised courtesy for me is like trying to believe the person at McDonalds is really and honestly wishing me a good day when they say it.

It makes -all- of it trite and ritualized into meaninglessness...as opposed to being able to smile when someone is genuinely courteous.

I realize that, but, these people needed the lesson learned. And I needed the family leave act it was my responsibility and right to act according to the letter of the law.

Legalized or not the courtesy forced upon those clowns was a gift bestowed upon those who followed me; especially those who could not fight for themselves. Therein lies the gift.....

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I realize that, but, these people needed the lesson learned. And I needed the family leave act it was my responsibility and right to act according to the letter of the law.

Legalized or not the courtesy forced upon those clowns was a gift bestowed upon those who followed me; especially those who could not fight for themselves. Therein lies the gift.....

Oops....I was unclear...

I meant legalizing -small- courtesy, like seats on a bus or doors being opened.

Not -legal equality- rights....which should be fought for at every turn.


(this will teach me to post while sewing!)

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Oops....I was unclear...

I meant legalizing -small- courtesy, like seats on a bus or doors being opened.

Not -legal equality- rights....which should be fought for at every turn.


(this will teach me to post while sewing!)

lol lol lol lol lol

 

[Miss Neecerie]

And not to muddy the issue completely, but this whole gentlemanly manners thing...is no exclusive domain of the 'vintage enthusiast' either...

I have had to open vintage car doors myself, had numerous building doors slam in my nose...etc.....all by the suited and supposedly 'mannerly' vintage enthusiast, despite what they might -say- about the topic.

I know -why-...and that reason means that for those sorts...manners are something to be used to gain what one wants....which hardly qualifies as mannerly then.