Borsalino Quality

[EstherWeis]

You are right. Pluche is used in french and we use it as well in flemish.it refers to anything fluffy.

Very interesting Steve, soleil I have seen. And melusine I often use. Beautiful finish.

Beautiful hats Alan!

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks!

The article I posted is from the time period when manual hot wet brush Velour methods were disappearing and what the German and Austrian regarded as Echter (Real) / Prima Velour was being threatened by what they considered imitation Velour. If you read the article you will see what they consider Echter / Prima Velour (basically if it's not hot wet brushed (plus other processes) and made of high quality Hare it's not Real / Prima Velour). Finish wise they break it down into 3 types Velour, Soleil and Flamand. I have to believe this accurate because this was a Deutsche Hutmacher Zeitung (German Hat Makers News) publication. The pre WWII hat industry ads for hoods that I have seen just mention Velour (not Flamand or Soleil).

 

[mayserwegener]

Nice Borsalinos. The Marque Grand Luxe by Borsalino was a 1950s-60s closely shaved velour finish hat sold in several qualities (up to XXXXXX) - must have been a popular import as it shows up quite frequently in the vintage market with U.S. markings.

This Colombo you posted is another example of a similar velour finish. The examples I have seen of this model were Italian market hats - this one is an XX also.

These are beautiful felts but quite a different animal to the luxurious German/Austrian velours

Alan, Thanks again!

Here is 1930s J. Hückel´s Söhne Alpha Seal Velour. I think everyone should be able to see the difference.

This 1930s Hückel Superior Crystall Velour is another great example.

 

[Tonio]

I recently sold one to @Tonio
maybe he will post it
gorgeous hat

yours do not look like velour finish

Very unique finish on this one.

Just the other day - Sleepy Borso

This image had been brightened slightly

Here's a pic Besdor posted from his visit to the Borsalino museum:

 

[moontheloon]

Very unique finish on this one.

Just the other day - Sleepy Borso
View attachment 58416

This image had been brightened slightly
View attachment 58418

damn that thing is gorgeous

it is nice to be able to see in now and then ... I miss that one

so amazingly soft ... and nearly impossible to photograph it's actual beauty unfortunately

 

[TheDane]

I have seen Plush used too. Also Melusine. For example FEPSA uses this term but I don't believe it's historicaly correct.

I am pretty sure the article I posted above is on point regarding industry terms for soft felt hats (from when it really mattered).

I'm sure, you're right about industry terms. "Pelouche" could be a popular term, though - like Esther's "Teddy finish". Actually I think, that "Pelouche" also is used for a Nylon-product, sometimes used for children's clothes and liners (imitated fur), that we call "Teddybear" in DK.

Lovely Seal Velour, btw! To judge from the brim edge, the felt seems very thick ... or is it just me? Does it feel heavy?

 

[mayserwegener]

Very unique finish on this one.

Just the other day - Sleepy Borso
View attachment 58416

This image had been brightened slightly
View attachment 58418

Here's a pic Besdor posted from his visit to the Borsalino museum:
View attachment 58425

Could you take a side view of the first one? I would like to have a closer look at the finish. It's really great!

It would be interesting to know when the bottom was made. My guess is it's pre WWII. I can't really see the finish because of the photo but it's a beauty. Thanks for tracking it down.

 

[jlee562]

Biltmore called their longhairs "Peluche."

e.g.: https://www.hats-plus.com/p-486-biltmore-farnham-peluche-homburg-hat.aspx

http://www.hatguys.com/product.php?productid=17639

 

[mayserwegener]

I'm sure, you're right about industry terms. "Pelouche" could be a popular term, though - like Esther's "Teddy finish". Actually I think, that "Pelouche" also is used for a Nylon-product, sometimes used for children's clothes and liners (imitated fur), that we call "Teddybear" in DK.

Lovely Seal Velour, btw! To judge from the brim edge, the felt seems very thick ... or is it just me? Does it feel heavy?

Ole, Yes they are both thicker Velour and both tiny sizes. Hückel Superior Crystall Velour is a size 54 cm and weighs 118 grams.

 

[mayserwegener]

I think today if it's dry scratched and clipped + polished it's a Velour. Sorry for all the old stuff but I think the historical context is often missed here.

Here is FEPSA Finishes chart. They have Velour and Special Velour or Melusine. Both Velour and Special Velour or Melusine have the same fur content LLX (Hare).

https://www.fepsa.pt/technical-info/finishes

 

[addison]

Nice Borsalinos. The Marque Grand Luxe by Borsalino was a 1950s-60s closely shaved velour finish hat sold in several qualities (up to XXXXXX) - must have been a popular import as it shows up quite frequently in the vintage market with U.S. markings.

This Colombo you posted is another example of a similar velour finish. The examples I have seen of this model were Italian market hats - this one is an XX also.

These are beautiful felts but quite a different animal to the luxurious German/Austrian velours

Gorgeous!

 

[EstherWeis]

Very unique finish on this one.

Just the other day - Sleepy Borso
View attachment 58416

This image had been brightened slightly
View attachment 58418

Here's a pic Besdor posted from his visit to the Borsalino museum:
View attachment 58425

Uh, that is one beautiful hat...
Looks super soft too.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

The use of the word "peluche" used as a playful way to define a finishing of felt sparked a small uproar.
I apologize to all participants in the thread
"Peluche" here is this

For the sake of clarification
Velour (French word) is the equivalent of the italian word "velluto".
In our tradition of weavers velvet is of two types: smooth or curly
The finest velvet, for us, is in silk, now also, modern time in cotton

That said the velvet finish is well represented in the examples that have been posted.
The "velour" is, for me, lustrous and silky or curly, never hairy.

In the manufacture of hats they use many words to describe the felt (rabbit and hare) finished with hair shorter or longer. Each manufacturer had its definitions which then were in the final product: the hat
The lustre and smooth is for me "velluto"

or this, other great example

Others finishing of the felt have another meaning for me

 

[Jeremiah]

Very nice.
When I was checking the inside of my two borsas for tags I noticed the inside of the crown had really long unfinished hairs.
Beautiful hats all around.

 

[Tiki Tom]

I have a modern Borsalino that I purchased about 2 years back; Charcoal grey with a nice dark blue/turquois ribbon. I have to say, it (and my Panama) is probably my most frequently worn hat. The felt is kind of medium-to-light weight, but it holds its shape magnificently. It's got a white silk lining and a leather sweatband. The quality seems just fine. In fact, it still almost looks like new. Anyway, I quite like it.

 

[alanfgag]

Could you take a side view of the first one? I would like to have a closer look at the finish. It's really great!

I would be surprised if this is not a twin Borsalino Marque Grand Luxe to the one I posted yesterday. I remember the plum cast in the ribbon - much better shown in Tonio's photos than in mine. These are wonderful late 1950s velour felts (Daniele's mention of "velvet" is perfect) that must have been well received in the U.S. I have watched a number come up for sale that were sold through Marshall Field in Chicago. Here is a close-up of an example that I still own:

 

[Jeremiah]

I would be surprised if this is not a twin Borsalino Marque Grand Luxe to the one I posted yesterday. I remember the plum cast in the ribbon - much better shown in Tonio's photos than in mine. These are wonderful late 1950s velour felts (Daniele's mention of "velvet" is perfect) that must have been well received in the U.S. I have watched a number come up for sale that were sold through Marshall Field in Chicago. Here is a close-up of an example that I still own:

If this is a velour finish then I think my two are in fact velour finished as this looks just like mine. This is old news I am sure.
http://www.hatlife.com/hat_finishes1.php

Here.

 

[mayserwegener]

How were these finishes produced? Were they dry scratched and clipped or produced by a special pouncing process? If they were produced by special pouncing I wouldn't call them Velour.

I have a very strict stance that follows the article I posted above. The finest Velour was produced by manual hot wet brushing / clipped / polished + the finest Hare varieties. There was reason why the French imported such Austrian and German Velours (bodies and finished hats).

The way I see it is at the least the felt has to be dry scratch (via shark skin) + clip + polish to be considered Velour. Also felt content should be Hare but that is more of a quality issue.

 

[mayserwegener]

The use of the word "peluche" used as a playful way to define a finishing of felt sparked a small uproar.
I apologize to all participants in the thread
"Peluche" here is this

For the sake of clarification
Velour (French word) is the equivalent of the italian word "velluto".
In our tradition of weavers velvet is of two types: smooth or curly
The finest velvet, for us, is in silk, now also, modern time in cotton

That said the velvet finish is well represented in the examples that have been posted.
The "velour" is, for me, lustrous and silky or curly, never hairy.

In the manufacture of hats they use many words to describe the felt (rabbit and hare) finished with hair shorter or longer. Each manufacturer had its definitions which then were in the final product: the hat
The lustre and smooth is for me "velluto"

or this, other great example

Others finishing of the felt have another meaning for me

Yes I tend (although the German and Austrian companies producing the highest quality Velours were in agreement with what would be considered Echter / Prima Velour) to agree with this and the article I posted points this out (in a negative way). In the time of the article Austrian and German Velour was considered the finest. The methods of producing such finishes required manual hot wet brushing (very labor intensive + high skilled) and the highest quality Hare varieties (see the article for more details). There is a reason why such Austrian and German Velours (felt bodies to finished hats) were exported throughout the world (even to Fashion King France). See the JHS Alpha Seal Velour and Superior Crystall Velour that I posted as examples.

 

[ptjoe]

Help!!
I want to buy a new Borsalino, either the Como or the Classic, which is less expensive.
From what I've been reading on Borsalino it sounds like I should stay away from them?
Are they made of rabbit felt or wool?
Maybe my only alternative is a Stetson Chatham, sovereign quality.
My Stetson Temples are of Royal De Luxe quality and nice to the touch.
I so wanted a Borsalino but I am now very hesitant to spend the bucks.
Any ideas on the Como with the whip stitching on the brim, it looks nice, and it says qualita superiore.
Thanks for your input.