Borsalino Dating: Just the Facts, Ma'am

[Visigoth]

Okay, rather than whine about the contradictory info floating about the FL regarding the dating of Borsalinos, I thought I'd do something about it. So:

Here's a thread in which to post nothing but *verified* facts about vintage Borsalinos (preferably with pictures). No conjecture. If you have a hat with a receipt from 1938, say, and can post pics/description of the liner, sweat, dimensions, etc., you'd be doing a great public service. Ads would be useful too (if dated) -- James?

Dying to have an archive of Besdor's vintage liners...

 

[jamespowers]

Ok I'll start. How about 1958 Borsalino?:

I have to check out the other room to see what I can take pictures of too.

Regards,

J

 

[squid]

1998

What do we do with the "best guess" photos and info?

 

[Visigoth]

Great start!

The "best guess" stuff is all over FL, unfortunately. And it just makes things complicated. For instance: many say that reeded sweat bands are late in the line, but two Borsos I purchased from the Bulgarian guys (who insist that their stock is thirties -- which is corroborated by the serial numbers) have these sweats. And the ones with plastic in the liner -- some insist that they're fifties or sixties, but the plastic is *not* plastic (it's that weird transparent fabric stuff); and the hats with it look to be much earlier. So, what we really need is proof one way or the other. I mean, both these conjectures may well be correct -- I'd just love to know.

 

[Visigoth]

1923 Borsalino Ad

 

[Fedora]

And it just makes things complicated. For instance: many say that reeded sweat bands are late in the line,

Why would the reeded leathers come later? I would think the other type came later, after the specialized sewing machine used to attach these was invented. It seems like the reeded type would predate the other sort, because the reeded leathers could be attached to the hat by hand. Fedora

 

[Marc Chevalier]

There is (or at least was) a book floating around eBay: it was an illustrated history of Borsalino & Company. Published in the 1950s. Full of photos. Think it was an anniversary edition, written in Italian.

Anyone have this book? Maybe it could provide some answers, at least up to the '50s.


.

 

[squid]

There is (or at least was) a book floating around eBay: it was an illustrated history of Borsalino & Company. Published in the 1950s. Full of photos. Think it was an anniversary edition, written in Italian.

Anyone have this book? Maybe it could provide some answers, at least up to the '50s.


.

Giuseppe Borsalino 1834-1934

www.alibris.com has it for $200

 

[jamespowers]

Interesting. The hat Zenith eh?
The models for this season look a lot better than last.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Giuseppe Borsalino 1834-1934

www.alibris.com has it for $200

No, I'm thinking of a different book. The eBay seller had a starting price of about $50. It didn't sell for a long time, as I recall.

.

 

[jamespowers]

Well, I decided to ressurect this because this ad got me thinking about why the vintage Borsalinos are so superior. Check this out:

The text reads:

"It may seem that four years making a hat betrays a leisurely Mediteranean approah to manufacture. Not so. To achieve Borsalino Suppleness, good looks and comfort we use "vintage felt." It takes three years to age the felt and then the body of the hat" (unreadable, unreadable) "another twelve months."
"We are very deliberate in other respects. The lining and band (both Italian silk" (unreadable)) "are hand sewn. The leather too. And we inspect and inspect. 43 time for each hat. A great deal of trouble, perhaps, but making Borsalino hats is a matter of family pride. Has been for more than a century."

Sounds like the recipe for a great hat to me. The ad is from 1961.

Regards,

J

 

[jamespowers]

1958 Borsalino speaks for itself:

 

[jamespowers]

Lastly, a 1952 ad. I'll take any hat pictured.

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

It may seem that four years making a hat betrays a leisurely Mediteranean approah to manufacture. Not so. To achieve Borsalino Suppleness, good looks and comfort we use "vintage felt." It takes three years to age the felt and then the body of the hat" (unreadable, unreadable) "another twelve months."
"We are very deliberate in other respects. The lining and band (both Italian silk" (unreadable)) "are hand sewn. The leather too. And we inspect and inspect. 43 time for each hat. A great deal of trouble, perhaps, but making Borsalino hats is a matter of family pride. Has been for more than a century."

I believe this too. Aging felt apparently has its advantages, and it makes sense as well. To my knowledge, no modern felt is aged today, but I may be wrong as I do not have inside knowledge of all felt makers. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

I believe this too. Aging felt apparently has its advantages, and it makes sense as well. To my knowledge, no modern felt is aged today, but I may be wrong as I do not have inside knowledge of all felt makers. Fedora

I think we are missing out on something then that they knew over fifty years ago. [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Cruiser]

Translation of unreadable text...

It takes three years to age the felt and then the body of the hat" (unreadable, unreadable) "another twelve months."
"We are very deliberate in other respects. The lining and band (both Italian silk" (unreadable)) "are hand sewn.

FWIW, I make the first unreadable to be, "It takes three years to age the felt and then the body of the hat must mature another twelvemonth."

The second one I see as, "The lining and band (both Italian silk, certamente) are hand sewn."

My Italian-English dictionary translates "certamente" as "sure" or perhaps "for sure" in our way of speaking.

 

[jamespowers]

FWIW, I make the first unreadable to be, "It takes three years to age the felt and then the body of the hat must mature another twelvemonth."

The second one I see as, "The lining and band (both Italian silk, certamente) are hand sewn."

My Italian-English dictionary translates "certamente" as "sure" or perhaps "for sure" in our way of speaking.

I think you are right. Thanks for filling in the blanks. :eusa_clap

Regards,

J

 

[Fedora]

I think one can assume that age and felt equals better felt. Up to the point that like wine, the age overcomes the felt. Let's see we have aged beef, aged wine, aged whiskey, aged wood, aged cheese, aged felt, did I mention aged whiskey? lol It seems all of the good things in life are aged!!! Ah, aged tobacco that makes Cuban cigars!!! Yep, makes perfect sense. Fedora

 

[feltfan]

Remember that article in Cigar Aficionado?

Regarding Cavanagh (and all the old hat makers) the author wrote:

"I remember the quality of the hats as being extraordinary. The felt was not particularly lightweight, and it appeared to be extremely dense. Yet, it felt mellow to the touch. Most of all, I recall the sound of the hat when placed on a table; it was a muffled, almost inaudible, thud, as though it had been dropped onto a cloud. I later learned that the soft touch and sound were a result of curing the felt, a process similar to aging a fine wine."

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,556,00.html

 

[jamespowers]

Remember that article in Cigar Aficionado?

Regarding Cavanagh (and all the old hat makers) the author wrote:

"I remember the quality of the hats as being extraordinary. The felt was not particularly lightweight, and it appeared to be extremely dense. Yet, it felt mellow to the touch. Most of all, I recall the sound of the hat when placed on a table; it was a muffled, almost inaudible, thud, as though it had been dropped onto a cloud. I later learned that the soft touch and sound were a result of curing the felt, a process similar to aging a fine wine."

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,556,00.html

Age makes all the difference. Think how much you know now rather than when you were 18 as an example.
I really would like to get beneath the proprietary processes and find out how they did it. [huh]