Bill Kelso dark seal Liberty horse

[Sloan1874]

Car crash stuff. They really need to get someone to take over their marketing. That's not actually a criticism, as Pawineguy points out, dealing with the public it's not necessarily something that comes naturally or easily to all.

 

[Bunyip]

Car crash stuff. They really need to get someone to take over their marketing. That's not actually a criticism, as Pawineguy points out, dealing with the public it's not necessarily something that comes naturally or easily to all.

Maybe get Roman from Lawless on the job? He is killing it.....just ask him!

 

[Sloan1874]

Shhh, my jeans might hear you and return to the factory...

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I put it this way...free speech is a great freedom to have...but if anyone visits my 'house' and uses speech that upsets my family..or ME...I certainly won't invite them back...or if they insist on their right to come back and do it consistently and even make speeches about it...I will have them removed or remove them myself. Those are my rules as soon as you enter the door. They can then stand outside (off my property) and scream all they want about it..and see if anyone else finally has enough of that kind of 'free speech'.
In my view..this is even more important if you're attempting to run a professional business...or trying to have a more pleasant forum.
HD

 

[SpeedRcrX]

I put it this way...free speech is a great freedom to have...but if anyone visits my 'house' and uses speech that upsets my family..or ME...I certainly won't invite them back...or if they insist on their right to come back and do it consistently and even make speeches about it...I will have them removed or remove them myself. Those are my rules as soon as you enter the door. They can then stand outside (off my property) and scream all they want about it..and see if anyone else finally has enough of that kind of 'free speech'.
In my view..this is even more important if you're attempting to run a professional business...or trying to have a more pleasant forum.
HD

I also would like to add, free speech is different from countries to countries.

For example in France, free speech has limit define by the law.

French law prohibits incitement to discrimination, hatred, or violence based on race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation, as well as inciting or defending terrorism or crimes against humanity.

I think we find the last part in most European countries because of WWII.

I don't know what is the law in Greece but since it's posted on FB, it's US laws that prevail (If I'm wrong, please, guys correct me.)

 

[Edward]

among the big brands, their website is such a joy to browse through, 360 view of a jacket fitted on mannequin is really cool.

That is a useful feature. I think John Goodwear does it very well too, with front / back / side shots of himself wearing the same-size jacket in each contract.

Last time I looked they didn't have the Dodger or the Wingman on their site.

I think I said already in this thread, but yes... the ipression I've had for a while is that the website isn't a high priority in their marketing strategy. Maybe they find they're selling them better via forums, facebook and/or American Classics? [huh] THat would certainly explain why the website seems markedly behind where they are as a business right now.

No, Good Wear: https://www.facebook.com/goodwearleather?fref=ts

Oh noes! Somebody, somewhere is opening a box and thinking "Blimey, a jacket and an iPhone for USD1500? Good deal!" :lol: Poor John. Such an easy mistake to make, as well. Hope he gets sorted out and feels able to laugh about it quickly.

I also would like to add, free speech is different from countries to countries.

For example in France, free speech has limit define by the law.

French law prohibits incitement to discrimination, hatred, or violence based on race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation, as well as inciting or defending terrorism or crimes against humanity.

I think we find the last part in most European countries because of WWII.

I don't know what is the law in Greece but since it's posted on FB, it's US laws that prevail (If I'm wrong, please, guys correct me.)

French laws on Holocaust denial aren't universal in Europe, but certainly do appear in most if not all countries that were subject to Nai rule and Nazi occupation.

In terms of applicable law, much as they seem to feel entitled to be a law unto themselves, Facebook will be subject to a multiplicity of laws. Their European arm is based in the Republic of Ireland, and thus much of the law by which they must abide for their European operations is Irish law. This is certainly the case for data protection; this is the reason why their ridiculous "real name policy" was upheld by the European courts. It was held to be unlawful in Germany, but because of the way EU data protection law works, as Facebook Europe is established in Ireland, Irish law applies. With criminal law, things work differently. If publishing certain material on the internet - whether Facebook or only their account holder is responsible - is a crime in the place in which it is downloaded and read (anywhere in the world), it's a universal legal principle that the responsible persons will have broken the criminal law in that place. Of course, in reality the problem is that if they cannot be traced or have not broken criminal law where they are based (and thus cannot be extradited), enforcement is pretty much an impossibility.

Under UK law, use of abusive or threatening terms on grounds of race or nationality can be an offence if, in context, they are likely to stir up hatred; for hate speech on grounds of religious belief (including those of all religiions and none) or sexuality, there must be both threatening words and an intention to stir up hatred. Nothing on the BK facebook I saw in my quick perusal crossed these lines, though you can see how easily they could be crossed if punters with an agenda are given free reign to say what they like. In that situation, the person running the page would certainly not be able to claim 'freedom of speech' as a defence, and would face liability if aware of the content. Freedom of speech no mtter where you find it in law in the world - has limits. Even in the USA, where legal protection of free speech is the strongest, there are very defined limits which exclude things such as obscenity, defamation, copyright infringement, and so on.

 

[tropicalbob]

Thanks for a very cogent explanation. The "punters with an agenda" passage is particularly food for thought. After reading Schitzo's rantings and Andy's "neutral" responses, I noticed all the jingoism and the weird equation of jacket production with patriotism, which immediately called to mind Lawless Denim's use of it to avoid discussing actual deliveries. What was it Samuel Johnson said about patriotism?

 

[Otter]

Was that something about the Tree of Liberty needing watered with the Blood of Bill Kelso or am I getting my Colonial Period history confused?

 

[Superfluous]

A few hours ago, BK added the following statements to its FB page:

“Bill Kelso Mfg: To the people who have been called names on our fb page, YOU brought this upon yourselves. . . . So maybe you deserved it.”

According to BK, homosexuals – who were called “faggots” on BK’s FB page by both Roscoe and BK – brought it upon themselves, and they “deserved it.” Wow. The BK train wreck continues!

“Bill Kelso Mfg: We remain neutral, not taking ANY sides.”

Really? Having affirmatively stated that your customers “aren’t faggots,” you claim neutrality?

“Bill Kelso Mfg: It was suggested that by allowing him to swear in public we shared his opinion.”

BK didn’t just “allow him to swear in public.” Rather, BK independently and affirmatively stated that its customers “aren’t faggots.” BK has not once owned this affirmative statement, nor apologized for it. Instead, BK attempts to circumvent its own, independent wrongdoing by myopically focusing on what others have said. To make matters exponentially worse, BK is now blaming “the people who have been called names on our fb page” – homosexuals – because, according to BK, they “brought this upon” themselves and they “deserved it.”

 

[RJR]

There is an obvious solution to things/people you find offensive......ignore them.

 

[Otter]

Having seen how they are supporting Vietnam Veterans Day (an admirable cause, Worf, I am looking at you), I would like to know the extent of the involvement of Greece in the war in Indochina.

 

[Sloan1874]

Has anyone taken them up on the 50 per cent deal? Does it hold?

 

[Edward]

Having seen how they are supporting Vietnam Veterans Day (an admirable cause, Worf, I am looking at you), I would like to know the extent of the involvement of Greece in the war in Indochina.

I'm sure way back when, in happier times, BK referred somewhere to them being a business established by US ex-pats, living in Europe, so presumably that's where the patriotism thing comes from. That and, y'know, a healthy sense of culturally-effective marketing.

 

[pawineguy]

I'm sure way back when, in happier times, BK referred somewhere to them being a business established by US ex-pats, living in Europe, so presumably that's where the patriotism thing comes from. That and, y'know, a healthy sense of culturally-effective marketing.

That's correct. A couple of months ago they announced that they were finally going to reveal the whole team, show pictures, name the people, etc... and then nothing. I'll say it again: they clearly have a passion for what they do, the work shows it, I like many of their jackets, so much potential there. Just totally tone-deaf.

Edit: A perfect example was that at the same time they were doing all this nonsense on Facebook they just had to post yet another apology to customers about not returning emails in a timely fashion.

 

[Sloan1874]

Not often you see a business shoot itself in both feet, pause, reloadm, and then do it again. :eusa_doh:

 

[Otter]

Watering the Tree.

 

[Fanch]

Foot-in-the-mouth disease. Bad case of it.

 

[ProteinNerd]

This gets messier with each passing day. I keep telling myself not to look but...cant...look...away.

I can understand to a degree both Schitzo and Andy feeling hurt by the ban, who wouldn't? And its easy to "say" stuff over the internet that you will regret later. I'm sure most of us have at one time or another have hit send on that email/post that you've later regretted. However, they really, REALLY need to just take down that whole FB post/topic.

Sometimes you just need to revise your FB "policy" even if it is regarding "freedom of speech".

It doesn't hurt schitzo financially but it will hurt BK. I wonder what percentage of his 1648 FB friends/like/followers he is continuing to insult and alienate each day....I'd wager a significant proportion are from here.

I for one have been eyeing a BK jacket for a while, I received the samples a month or so ago but this has changed my mind. I'm not saying I will never order from them but I've pretty much hit the number of total jackets I want/will allow myself to own and they have dropped from number 1 or 2 to the bottom of the list.

I'm not homosexual, nor personally offended by the post, but it is in incredibly bad taste, I have a few gay friends that are very very nice people and I just don't want to reward a vendor with my hard earned $ that conducts themselves in that manner and I will not sell my personal integrity for a 50% discount.

I actually miss both Andy's and Schitzos contributions to the forum, sure they were different but they were passionate and helped generated some interesting discussions. Its a shame it has come to this.

 

[Monitor]

Andy was great people, as far as I am concerned. Man was constantly sharing his knowledge about leather and leather jackets with us and was of infinite help to the board and me personally, even though I've never bought one of his jackets. And yes, the manner in which some of the members responded toward Andy's contributions was uncalled for, as he was never nothing short of a perfect gentlemen. He's doing his best to make everyone happy. That's can't be a bad thing, no matter how you look at it.

And I'll be the first to say that I've always found Schitzo to be very helpful and polite, albeit over-opinionated and passionate as ProteinNerd noted, characteristics that I consider to be virtues rather than flaws. Plus he also took the time to help me out and share some excellent advices with me, when I didn't know how to proceed, on his own account, and I appreciate that immensely. He's a good bloke, I suppose, which is why I don't understand what the hell is happening on that FB page.

 

[Otter]

Andy was great people, as far as I am concerned. Man was constantly sharing his knowledge about leather and leather jackets with us and was of infinite help to the board and me personally, even though I've never bought one of his jackets. And yes, the manner in which some of the members responded toward Andy's contributions was uncalled for, as he was never nothing short of a perfect gentlemen. He's doing his best to make everyone happy. That's can't be a bad thing, no matter how you look at it.

And I'll be the first to say that I've always found Schitzo to be very helpful and polite, albeit over-opinionated and passionate as ProteinNerd noted, characteristics that I consider to be virtues rather than flaws. Plus he also took the time to help me out and share some excellent advices with me, when I didn't know how to proceed, on his own account, and I appreciate that immensely. He's a good bloke, I suppose, which is why I don't understand what the hell is happening on that FB page.

Really? The man that one of our own Bartenders described as having " A spray can of nasty."

As far as I am aware BK chose not to post here any more . They were only banned on VLJ , a step which I thought was too much but nobody else seemed to agree much with. I have often kibbitzed about the BK attitude but I don't think that anyone could dispute their knowledge about leather types. I think their M 422's are probably the best, the Aero (naughts?) Look great and I love the A-2 's with the USMC frogskin cammo linings.