BATTER UP!

[Fading Fast]

1920s mania for baseball and straw hats!

That's exactly the type of picture I was talking about (thank you 2Jakes) as I'm always amazed at how uniform the hat-choice was.

The Babe's one involvement in politics was his campaigning for Smith in 1928, and he did it in his own distinctive style. One memorable afternoon Ruth was among the celebrities attending a rally for Smith at the Hotel Biltmore, along with his teammates Lou Gehrig, Waite Hoyt, and Tony Lazzeri. Someone invited the Babe to mount the dais and say a few words on behalf of the candidate, which he did -- only to run out of steam. He fumbled around for a bit and saw Lazzeri sitting down the table, and invited him up. "Here's Tony Lazzeri, folks!" he declared in his most jovial tones. "He'll tell ya who all the wops are gonna vote for!"

It is not recorded what Lazzeri said in response.

Clearly, I don't know the tone or inflection of Ruth's comments, but my dad's mix-ethnicity-background friends said stuff like that to each other (when I was growing up) without rancor is disparagement. It was just a normal thing for them to do - "let's here what the greeks think - Peter?" "Italo [I kid you not, that was his name] what do the wops say?"

 

[Ghostsoldier]

My dad grew up in Ohio in the 40s and 50s, and he said that they did the same thing; there was no rancor, malice or political correctness in that dialogue....it just "was".

Rob

 

[Fading Fast]

My dad grew up in Ohio in the 40s and 50s, and he said that they did the same thing; there was no rancor, malice or political correctness in that dialogue....it just "was".

Rob

The thing is, they were very close friends for life as they had grown up in the same neighborhood and the ethnicity thing was just something they, IMHO, took for granted. Sure, they made fun of each other, but it didn't mean anything to them.

I saw them help each other out and stand by each other in tough times throughout their lives- they were real friends.

Today, our bettors would be horrified by what my dad's friends said to each other - every day - and would tell us why it was wrong and perpetuated this stereotype or reflected that privilege or power structure - sure, whatever, I wish I had as many true friends as they all did.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That sort of ethnic joshing was very, very common and even accepted in baseball at the time -- but only up to a point. The Babe himself came out of St. Mary's Industrial School with a nickname suggesting that his facial features denoted that he was not of pure Nordic ancestry, and he didn't like to be called by that name. Other players realized this, and would heckle him from the dugout with that nickname. It finally got under his skin, and he confronted his hecklers: "Look you guys, I don't care if you call me a p***k or a c********r, but lay off the personal stuff!"

Some players forcefully crossed the line in other ways, and paid for it. There was a speedy .300-hitting outfielder on the Yankees in the mid-thirties named Ben Chapman, who had the habit of yelling ethnic slurs at Jewish-looking patrons he spotted in the outfield seats. The team got enough complaints about this that they traded Chapman away. He kept up his habits wherever he went, and when he became the manager of the Phillies after the war, he earned eternal infamy as the most brutal of Jackie Robinson's racial hecklers, to the point where columnist Walter Winchell mounted a campaign to get him fired: "Let's make a big hit on that big-ot!"

And then there was the case of Jake Powell, another Yankee of the thirties. He was being interviewed on a radio pre-game show at Comiskey Park by Bob Elson in 1938, when Elson asked him what he did in the off-season. He told Elson that he was a cop back home in Ohio, and he kept in shape by "busting n*****s over the head" with his nightstick. The station immediately cut off the broadcast, but enough people heard and complained that Judge Landis suspended Powell for ten days. The story generated a lot of negative publicity back in New York, and as penance the Yankees required Powell to conduct a walking tour of Harlem bars, introducing himself, apologizing, and buying a round of drinks for the house before moving on to the next stop.

 

[2jakes]

One thing that was puzzling at a very young age was the lunch counter
“color” sign at Woolworth’s informing folks where they were allowed to sit.
Being brown, I sat in the middle, hoping I made the right choice!

 

[LizzieMaine]

Only one major-league ballpark was ever formally segregated -- Sportsman's Park in St. Louis required African-American fans to sit in a screened-in section of the right-field pavillion. This lasted until 1944 when the Browns, who owned the park, and on the way to their only pennant, removed the screen and desegregated the park.

The Browns would become the third team to integrate its roster in 1947, when they added Negro League stars Willard Brown and Hank Thompson. Both failed to live up to expectations and were cut before the end of the season, but Thompson later became a star on the Giants, and Brown is a Hall of Famer for his Negro League accomplishments.

 

[Fading Fast]

That sort of ethnic joshing was very, very common and even accepted in baseball at the time -- but only up to a point. The Babe himself came out of St. Mary's Industrial School with a nickname suggesting that his facial features denoted that he was not of pure Nordic ancestry, and he didn't like to be called by that name. Other players realized this, and would heckle him from the dugout with that nickname. It finally got under his skin, and he confronted his hecklers: "Look you guys, I don't care if you call me a p***k or a c********r, but lay off the personal stuff!"

Some players forcefully crossed the line in other ways, and paid for it. There was a speedy .300-hitting outfielder on the Yankees in the mid-thirties named Ben Chapman, who had the habit of yelling ethnic slurs at Jewish-looking patrons he spotted in the outfield seats. The team got enough complaints about this that they traded Chapman away. He kept up his habits wherever he went, and when he became the manager of the Phillies after the war, he earned eternal infamy as the most brutal of Jackie Robinson's racial hecklers, to the point where columnist Walter Winchell mounted a campaign to get him fired: "Let's make a big hit on that big-ot!"

And then there was the case of Jake Powell, another Yankee of the thirties. He was being interviewed on a radio pre-game show at Comiskey Park by Bob Elson in 1938, when Elson asked him what he did in the off-season. He told Elson that he was a cop back home in Ohio, and he kept in shape by "busting n*****s over the head" with his nightstick. The station immediately cut off the broadcast, but enough people heard and complained that Judge Landis suspended Powell for ten days. The story generated a lot of negative publicity back in New York, and as penance the Yankees required Powell to conduct a walking tour of Harlem bars, introducing himself, apologizing, and buying a round of drinks for the house before moving on to the next stop.

This all makes sense to me as there was a clearly understood distinction between joking around / kidding / light-hearted ribbing and rancor / asperity / true intent to insult.

What I saw and felt from my father's group was the former - there was a warmth to it as crazy as that might sound to those not familiar with it. But my parents didn't brook any of the later in our house as they respected and taught me to respect everyone until they gave you a reason not to and background / color / etc. was absolutely not a reason.

To be sure, there is a "feel" to this that takes understanding, but IMHO, kids are very good at understanding those types of distinction when they want to.

 

[EngProf]

Insults between friends are in a different category than insults to persons you don't know (as with Babe and the other baseball players).
When I was in grad school the custom was when you came in the office you would greet the other grad-students with something like: "Hello all you commie-pinko hippie-type long-haired pseudo-intellectual preverts." The more insults you could put in the greetings the more "credit" you got.

"To be sure, there is a "feel" to this that takes understanding..." If you can't do it right it's very awkward - at best...

 

[LizzieMaine]

Here's a fascinating bit of newsreel coverage of the final game of the 1924 World Series between the Senators and the Giants at Griffith Stadium in Washington -- the famous game in which Walter Johnson finally won a Series victory on the strength of a ground ball hitting a pebble and bouncing over the Giant shortstop's head.

"God couldn't stand to see Walter Johnson lose another game," as one pundit wrote. This series remains the last World Championship ever won by a Washington baseball team, although the Senators franchise itself would go on to win others as the Minnesota Twins.

 

[2jakes]

Opening shot with Honus Wagner on the right.

Song is from Redford's “The Natural” (1984).
Kinda makes Cobb look like a nice chap...somehow !

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Orioles of 1921

Federal League team of 1914

Rob

 

[Fading Fast]

It's a password protected site, but if you do have a subscription, this is a good article explaining several of the ramifications that "big data" has had and is having on the game today:

The Downside of Baseball’s Data Revolution—Long Games, Less Action
After years of ‘Moneyball’-style quantitative analysis, major-league teams are setting records for inactivity
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-do...a-revolutionlong-games-less-action-1507043924

 

[HudsonHawk]

It's a password protected site, but if you do have a subscription, this is a good article explaining several of the ramifications that "big data" has had and is having on the game today:

The Downside of Baseball’s Data Revolution—Long Games, Less Action
After years of ‘Moneyball’-style quantitative analysis, major-league teams are setting records for inactivity
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-do...a-revolutionlong-games-less-action-1507043924

I haven't read the article, but just a comment about "moneyball": Beane and the concept of "moneyball" sometimes gets a bad rap, and is blamed for the over-analytical nature of much of the game today, but that wasn't what Beane was doing or what "moneyball" really was. The goal wasn't to use statistics to analyze every aspect of the game or to supersede traditional scouting, but rather it was Beane's attempt to find players who were undervalued in the competitive marketplace by looking at the less common and less glamorous metrics, such as how often a guy drew a walk, and translate that into future production. The goal was to try to stay competitive with a smaller payroll by finding these "bargain" players, not to dismiss traditional baseball metrics or evaluations. Many of today's smug statgeeks (a good many who have never touched a baseball or are allergic to dirt) have co-opted it, however, as a mechanism to dismiss what they think of as old school relics.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Branch Rickey was the real pioneer of stat-related scouting -- using the material gathered by Allen Roth in the late 1940s onward, he emphasized statistical analysis in personnel decisions in the Dodger and Pirate organizations, not just in determining who to sign, but when to get rid of them. His famous remark to Ralph Kiner, "We could have finished last without you," should be interpreted in that sense.

 

[Fading Fast]

Baseball has competing / conflicting goals. Each team wants to win, so using statistics to choose the best player, best play, best defense, best time to pull a pitcher, bat a left-handed hitter, etc., all makes sense and, if it proves superior to older-style scouting, then it should supersede it (my feeling is both need to work in harmony for the best outcome). But the baseball league, made up of each team, is really in the entertainment business which is about giving the fans games they enjoy seeing.

The article shows how the former is hurting the latter as statistic-driven decisions are reducing the number of times the ball gets into play and is increasing the "downtime" of the games owing to more pitching changes, etc., both developments reducing fan enjoyment of the game. Hence, while each team might benefit by using stats-driven decisions (even if it is a zero-sum game, you don't want to be the team left behind in the arms race), the league overall is hurting itself by reducing the value of its "product -" the game - to its customers - the fans.

Other leagues - like the NFL - just change the rules until they get the right scoring, etc., that its fan base wants, but tradition-driven baseball is loath to change that way, so the stats-driven decisioning is helping each team (kinda, it's that zero-sum issue again), but is definitely hurting the overall league. Interesting problem.

 

[belfastboy]

I haven't read the article, but just a comment about "moneyball": Beane and the concept of "moneyball" sometimes gets a bad rap, and is blamed for the over-analytical nature of much of the game today, but that wasn't what Beane was doing or what "moneyball" really was. The goal wasn't to use statistics to analyze every aspect of the game or to supersede traditional scouting, but rather it was Beane's attempt to find players who were undervalued in the competitive marketplace by looking at the less common and less glamorous metrics, such as how often a guy drew a walk, and translate that into future production. The goal was to try to stay competitive with a smaller payroll by finding these "bargain" players, not to dismiss traditional baseball metrics or evaluations. Many of today's smug statgeeks (a good many who have never touched a baseball or are allergic to dirt) have co-opted it, however, as a mechanism to dismiss what they think of as old school relics.

While Beane's approach made (and makes sense still) an overlooked (conveniently) is that the year of his success and the attendant accolades for his approach the A's had a stellar pitching staff. 3 of the top pitchers in the game all having pretty damn good years will go a long way in delivering wins. Some what similar to Earl Weaver's strategy......gimme a well pitched game and a 3 run homer.....works pretty much everytime.

 

[ChazfromCali]

While Beane's approach made (and makes sense still) an overlooked (conveniently) is that the year of his success and the attendant accolades for his approach the A's had a stellar pitching staff. 3 of the top pitchers in the game all having pretty damn good years will go a long way in delivering wins. Some what similar to Earl Weaver's strategy......gimme a well pitched game and a 3 run homer.....works pretty much everytime.

The Oakland A's haven't done much lately.
2017 Oakland Athletics American League 75 87 .463 26.0 5th
2016 Oakland Athletics American League 69 93 .426 26.0 5th
2015 Oakland Athletics American League 68 94 .420 20.0 5th

Is Beane's method effective anymore?

 

[2jakes]

Couldn’t sleep.... watched the Dodgers beat Arizona Diamondbacks @ 2 AM

 

[belfastboy]

Couldn’t sleep.... watched the Dodgers beat Arizona Diamondbacks @ 2 AM

Turner had himself a night!

 

[belfastboy]

Maybe he can afford a razor now!

Helluva sponsorship opportunity!