Barry Bonds 700 Club

[LizzieMaine]

The "anything goes to gain an edge" philosophy is exactly the problem. There really isn't any line between ignoring "anything goes to get an edge" on the playing field and "anything goes to get an edge" in the real world. Once you start nodding your head and closing your eyes to it in sports, you're going to be finding ways to justify it in business, in politics, and in personal relationships.

"Edge gaining" has been going on in sports for as long as their has been sports. Corruption has been going on in business and politics and marriage as long as those fine institutions have existed. Should we overlook one and not the others?

 

[HudsonHawk]

As for Bonds, he may have avoided much of the contempt he faces, had he owned his actions/decisions. He may have even been voted into the HOF in his first year of eligibility.

There will be an interesting case in a few years when Andy Pettitte becomes eligible. By the numbers, Pettitte is a borderline candidate, who would normally receive a lot of support, and probably eventually get in due to the fact that he was a Yankee for a long time. He's also a a steroid user, but, unlike others, he admitted it right away and apologized (sort of). It will be interesting to see how voters look at him. Will he be forgiven? The writers have not been kind, not only to known users, but they've gone so far as to engage in their own steroid witch hunt, looking for guys who've never been implicated, but "he just *looks* like what I think a roider should look like". Jeff Bagwell is the poster boy for this phenomenon. But that may change in the coming years, and Pettitte may be the catalyst for that.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The "anything goes to gain an edge" philosophy is exactly the problem. There really isn't any line between ignoring "anything goes to get an edge" on the playing field and "anything goes to get an edge" in the real world. Once you start nodding your head and closing your eyes to it in sports, you're going to be finding ways to justify it in business, in politics, and in personal relationships.

"Edge gaining" has been going on in sports for as long as their has been sports. Corruption has been going on in business and politics and marriage as long as those fine institutions have existed. Should we overlook one and not the others?

Gaining an edge is one thing. Cheating is another. If during the course of a game, a player picks up another team's signs and uses it to his advantage, that's gaining an edge. Organized sign stealing using a telescope and a buzzer system is cheating.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Gaining an edge is one thing. Cheating is another. If during the course of a game, a player picks up another team's signs and uses it to his advantage, that's gaining an edge. Organized sign stealing using a telescope and a buzzer system is cheating.

I think that would be a pretty prime example of the "anything goes" school of edge-gaining. Sort of like Nixon having his boys bug the DNC.

 

[Frunobulax]

Most of what I threw at Reggie was mouth, although a few wadded up napkins went in his direction. I think he was a big enough fella to stand up to that.

OK, so you're an Internet Tough Guy blowing smoke on the forum.

I hope no one shows up at your place of business and throws napkins at you. That would be rude.

 

[LizzieMaine]

OK, so you're an Internet Tough Guy blowing smoke on the forum.

I hope no one shows up at your place of business and throws napkins at you. That would be rude.

Another thing we liked to throw at Reggie was mustard packets. You can't have a six-foot-tall hot dog without a lot of mustard.

To be perfectly fair, though, I always kind of liked Reggie when he was on the Athletics. Anybody who could stand at home plate during the NBC Game Of The Week and flip off Charlie Finley had his heart in the right place.

 

[Frunobulax]

Rose is a disgrace to the game, and it'll be one of the darkest days in baseball history if he's ever re-instated.

Y'know, I really understand where you're coming from. I understand the anger and frustration at having to face someone of his stature cheated. I, however, do believe in forgiveness and redemption. Everybody, even Bonds and Doc Gooden, should be allowed to be forgiven. It's good for the soul.

But also, Pete eRose is one of those things I don't listen to reason about, and instead rely on emotion. I grew up watching the BRM. Pete was one of my "heroes." He's a big reason I get to work early, stay late, and bust my butt. I grew up wanting to give "110%," like Pete. Loved all of the BRM. Perez and Concepcion are also favorites, but Pete was THE MAN when I was growing up. So, I still like him.

Everybody has their flaws, and some get exposed more than others. For all I know, Christy Mathewson kicked puppies and Three-Finger Brown shoplifted. I'm too busy to lose a lot of sleep over it.

 

[WesternHatWearer]

There will be an interesting case in a few years when Andy Pettitte becomes eligible. By the numbers, Pettitte is a borderline candidate, who would normally receive a lot of support, and probably eventually get in due to the fact that he was a Yankee for a long time. He's also a a steroid user, but, unlike others, he admitted it right away and apologized (sort of). It will be interesting to see how voters look at him. Will he be forgiven? The writers have not been kind, not only to known users, but they've gone so far as to engage in their own steroid witch hunt, looking for guys who've never been implicated, but "he just *looks* like what I think a roider should look like". Jeff Bagwell is the poster boy for this phenomenon. But that may change in the coming years, and Pettitte may be the catalyst for that.

If I were asked today in a poll as I walked down the street, "Does Andy Pettitte get voted into the HOF on the first try?" I would answer positively, yes. I believe that by taking ownership and moving forward voters feel a kinship to him, they see the human and are willing to forgive.

 

[LizzieMaine]

He won't get in on the first vote, because even if he were clean he wouldn't be a first-vote candidate. But possibly five or ten years down the line he might. Sportswriters, in the end, are the only ones who get a say, and they tend to be pretty stingy with first-ballot candidates.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Y'know, I really understand where you're coming from. I understand the anger and frustration at having to face someone of his stature cheated.

Perhaps you misunderstand. Rose didn't cheat. He gambled on games he managed. He knew the punishment and did it anyway. Repeatedly. He then lied about it.

 

[HudsonHawk]

If I were asked today in a poll as I walked down the street, "Does Andy Pettitte get voted into the HOF on the first try?" I would answer positively, yes. I believe that by taking ownership and moving forward voters feel a kinship to him, they see the human and are willing to forgive.

As Lizzie says, he wouldn't be a firt ballot guy even if he never used. He's borderline at best. I think he'd eventually get in because he played for the Yankees. Personally, I wouldn't vote for him either way.

 

[Frunobulax]

Perhaps you misunderstand. Rose didn't cheat. He gambled on games he managed. He knew the punishment and did it anyway. Repeatedly. He then lied about it.

I understand perfectly. I don't think you're following me.

C'est la vie!

 

[HudsonHawk]

I understand perfectly. I don't think you're following me.

C'est la vie!

I'm following the part where you said it's hard to believe someone of his stature cheated. As far as I know, he's never been accused of cheating. You seem to be conflating cheating with gambling, in what a appears to be an attempt to rationalize his actions against those of others who were accused of cheating and/or being surly personalities. Gambling on a game in which you have a duty to perform is an entirely different universe than cheating, or kicking puppies for that matter.

 

[pawineguy]

I'm following the part where you said it's hard to believe someone of his stature cheated. As far as I know, he's never been accused of cheating. You seem to be conflating cheating with gambling, in what a appears to be an attempt to rationalize his actions against those of others who were accused of cheating and/or being surly personalities. Gambling on a game in which you have a duty to perform is an entirely different universe than cheating, or kicking puppies for that matter.

Rose was a "rule breaker" as opposed to a cheater. Rose also signed an agreement with baseball to accept his lifetime banishment in exchange for MLB not releasing all of the evidence they had on him to the public. (most agree that this evidence is conclusive that he bet AGAINST his own team) If he is ever reinstated, he will probably still not be voted into the HOF, because that evidence will become public and he'll be done with the sportswriters. One of the reasons that Rose gets only lukewarm support from the writers now is that they all know that he has publicly lied about what is in the report for the past 20+ years.

 

[Frunobulax]

I'm following the part where you said it's hard to believe someone of his stature cheated. As far as I know, he's never been accused of cheating. You seem to be conflating cheating with gambling, in what a appears to be an attempt to rationalize his actions against those of others who were accused of cheating and/or being surly personalities. Gambling on a game in which you have a duty to perform is an entirely different universe than cheating, or kicking puppies for that matter.

Thanks for the poor pshychoanalysis. I'm sorry I used the wrong word. It can however, be seen as cheating if he altered his management to accommodate his gambling.

OK, he gambled. It was wrong. He broke the rules that are posted on EVERY CLUBHOUSE WALL. He faces lifetime banishment for that, as per the rules and the Commisioner's decision.

I'm not excusing his actions, just making a case for forgiveness. Even if he's never reinstated, it's nonproductive to not forgive him.

It's also nonproductive to have this conversation. Both of our minds are made up, and I'm not trying to argue, just bringing up points.

 

[pawineguy]

Gaining an edge is one thing. Cheating is another. If during the course of a game, a player picks up another team's signs and uses it to his advantage, that's gaining an edge. Organized sign stealing using a telescope and a buzzer system is cheating.

Baseball has always known how to deal with sign stealers... take a peak towards the catcher and see where the pitcher puts the next ball. (From about the age of 11 on, btw)

 

[pawineguy]

Thanks for the poor pshychoanalysis. I'm sorry I used the wrong word. It can however, be seen as cheating if he altered his management to accommodate his gambling.

OK, he gambled. It was wrong. He broke the rules that are posted on EVERY CLUBHOUSE WALL. He faces lifetime banishment for that, as per the rules and the Commisioner's decision.

I'm not excusing his actions, just making a case for forgiveness. Even if he's never reinstated, it's nonproductive to not forgive him.

It's also nonproductive to have this conversation. Both of our minds are made up, and I'm not trying to argue, just bringing up points.

This is the Catch 22... if Rose wants forgiveness from MLB, then the truth needs to come out, and he needs to admit to continuing to lie since 1994. He does that, and much of his support withers away.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing is, even if he does come back hat in hand and admit every sleazy thing he ever did, the fact remains that he broke the one involiable rule in organized baseball, going all the way back to the days of Judge Landis. He bet on games while a uniformed member of a Major League team. Even if he never actually jiggered his pitching staff to influence the odds on any of his bets, even if he had his team play to win in every game he managed while he had money riding on the outcome, he still violated the prime directive of organized ball.

If you reinstate a man who did that just because he was an outstanding hitter and a fierce competitor and he's getting old and pathetic now shilling away as a sad self-parody in TV commercials and baseball card shows, what's the point of the having the rule at all? If he were truly contrite, he'd not only acknowledge what he did was wrong, but he'd accept the validity of his sentence, and serve it out with dignity. That, I could respect.

Eddie Cicotte, one of the Black Sox, did exactly that. He admitted his mistakes, he walked away from baseball, and he never begged or groveled for reinstatement, despite a career that would have made him a cinch Hall of Famer once that institution was founded. He lived a long and dignified life without ever trying to make it look like he was the victim. He was sincerely contrite over his betrayal of the fans' trust. Rose should follow his example.

 

[HudsonHawk]

He faces lifetime banishment for that, as per the rules and the Commisioner's decision.

He faces permanent banishment, not just for his lifetime.

Even if he's never reinstated, it's nonproductive to not forgive him.

It's non-productive to forgive him too.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The thing is, even if he does come back hat in hand and admit every sleazy thing he ever did, the fact remains that he broke the one involiable rule in organized baseball, going all the way back to the days of Judge Landis. He bet on games while a uniformed member of a Major League team. Even if he never actually jiggered his pitching staff to influence the odds on any of his bets, even if he had his team play to win in every game he managed while he had money riding on the outcome, he still violated the prime directive of organized ball.

If you reinstate a man who did that just because he was an outstanding hitter and a fierce competitor and he's getting old and pathetic now shilling away as a sad self-parody in TV commercials and baseball card shows, what's the point of the having the rule at all? If he were truly contrite, he'd not only acknowledge what he did was wrong, but he'd accept the validity of his sentence, and serve it out with dignity. That, I could respect.

Eddie Cicotte, one of the Black Sox, did exactly that. He admitted his mistakes, he walked away from baseball, and he never begged or groveled for reinstatement, despite a career that would have made him a cinch Hall of Famer once that institution was founded. He lived a long and dignified life without ever trying to make it look like he was the victim. He was sincerely contrite over his betrayal of the fans' trust. Rose should follow his example.

This is it in a nutshell. He did the crime, now he must do the time, irrespective of whether or not he's sorry about it.