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[Judgmentalist]

The problem with a place like this is that it is populated by many people and some of them have been collecting hats (or watches or clothes or whatever) for years. Some of them are blessed with smaller head sizes which allows them to score some great finds and at a lower cost (which means they may be able to buy more hats).

And then you have to remember that we're all at the mercy of chance... Walking into an antique store and finding something special, scoring something through a chance eBay search in a spare moment, lucking out with a winning bid in an auction all depend on the item found being put up for sale in the first place. It's not like when these were widely available and you could just walk into a store and buy them. And the ones in pristine condition almost always go for a pretty penny, which potentially further limits ones ability to procure them.

I think there are a lot of folks with cool hats here, but I've slowly started to build a pretty cool collection myself and you have too. That Zephyr weight velour you posted today is phenomenal. You've got a borsalino that I drool over every time I see it.

I think you're just impatient and want to have what has taken folks years to acquire and it just doesn't work that way (unless you just have stupid amounts of money and are willing to spend whatever it takes to get something whenever you see it). But you'll get there too if you stick at it!

Oh yeah - impatience is definitely a major factor lol.

I have yet to find a single soft felt hat in my size that has been felted using mercury as part of the process. And I have been paying very close attention. But only for about six months or so.

I'm to the point where I would be very tempted to buy a hat that was too small for me just to be able to handle one. It would be a temporary resident, most likely, but the gap in my education is driving me a little bit bonkers.

I think I've got most of the 50s-60s era hats I'm going to need - barring a couple really standout items. Same with stingy-brims. If I had a dollar for every beautiful stingy-brimmed hat that I would buy if it had a wider brim I could afford that damn Stetson One Hundred on eBay that is haunting my dreams lol.

I like my Optimos and my customs - I may add one or two a year depending on what I want that I can't find and what comes up for sale. I've actually been thinning the herd a bit which is also fairly rewarding dopamine-wise, shockingly enough.

 

[belfastboy]

Oh yeah - impatience is definitely a major factor lol.

I have yet to find a single soft felt hat in my size that has been felted using mercury as part of the process. And I have been paying very close attention. But only for about six months or so.

I'm to the point where I would be very tempted to buy a hat that was too small for me just to be able to handle one. It would be a temporary resident, most likely, but the gap in my education is driving me a little bit bonkers.

I think I've got most of the 50s-60s era hats I'm going to need - barring a couple really standout items. Same with stingy-brims. If I had a dollar for every beautiful stingy-brimmed hat that I would buy if it had a wider brim I could afford that damn Stetson One Hundred on eBay that is haunting my dreams lol.

I like my Optimos and my customs - I may add one or two a year depending on what I want that I can't find and what comes up for sale. I've actually been thinning the herd a bit which is also fairly rewarding dopamine-wise, shockingly enough.

I had a hatter in Europe offer to make me a fedora out of a new/old stock 1940's felt that used mercury in the felting process. I turned it down as it was a navy blue. I do regret not jumping on it......

 

[jeffgarf]

I had a hatter in Europe offer to make me a fedora out of a new/old stock 1940's felt that used mercury in the felting process. I turned it down as it was a navy blue. I do regret not jumping on it......

You did not!

 

[Judgmentalist]

I had a hatter in Europe offer to make me a fedora out of a new/old stock 1940's felt that used mercury in the felting process. I turned it down as it was a navy blue. I do regret not jumping on it......

Umm…. Send me the contact info lol

 

[ruvort]

Oh yeah - impatience is definitely a major factor lol.

I have yet to find a single soft felt hat in my size that has been felted using mercury as part of the process. And I have been paying very close attention. But only for about six months or so.

I'm to the point where I would be very tempted to buy a hat that was too small for me just to be able to handle one. It would be a temporary resident, most likely, but the gap in my education is driving me a little bit bonkers.

I think I've got most of the 50s-60s era hats I'm going to need - barring a couple really standout items. Same with stingy-brims. If I had a dollar for every beautiful stingy-brimmed hat that I would buy if it had a wider brim I could afford that damn Stetson One Hundred on eBay that is haunting my dreams lol.

I like my Optimos and my customs - I may add one or two a year depending on what I want that I can't find and what comes up for sale. I've actually been thinning the herd a bit which is also fairly rewarding dopamine-wise, shockingly enough.

If I may, I wouldn't let yourself get obsessed by this. Just keep to hats in your size and eventually things will come your way.

Even though hats made with those old processes are nice, it's not worth pining for. Hats made in the 40's and 50's are still superb and vastly superior to anything you can find today.

 

[Onomea]

… Hats made in the 40's and 50's are still superb and vastly superior to anything you can find today…

I wonder if this is the consensus of the forum? Say, compared to Optimo or Gannon or Fawcett or Penman and other top custom makers, are the hats of yesteryear truly vastly superior?

 

[Judgmentalist]

I wonder if this is the consensus of the forum? Say, compared to Optimo or Gannon or Fawcett or Penman and other to top custom makers, are the hats of yesteryear truly vastly superior?

One sec… ok I’m ready

 

[Onomea]

Ah! I understand. Thanks!

 

[Judgmentalist]

I wonder if this is the consensus of the forum? Say, compared to Optimo or Gannon or Fawcett or Penman and other to top custom makers, are the hats of yesteryear truly vastly superior?

I can’t speak for the consensus, but I find the question interesting. Here’s how I see the arguments.

Vintage hats and contemporary customs solve two different problems: finding an exceptional hat among what survives, and commissioning a hat to your specifications. Their advantages overlap, but they aren’t identical.

The case for vintage

1. Economies of scale. Everyday hat wearing once supported an enormous industry of specialized machinery, skilled workers, and dedicated suppliers. Manufacturers could spread the cost of elaborate processes across thousands of hats, making sophisticated construction and finishing economically practical.

A small contemporary shop cannot readily reproduce that manufacturing system, especially where equipment, suppliers, or specialized skills have disappeared. Mass production could support excellent craftsmanship at prices that would be difficult to match today.

2. Mercury. Another argument concerns mercury-based carroting: that it enabled tighter felting and consequently finer felt. Equally effective chemical substitutes would carry similar biological hazards, preventing safe reproduction of those results.

Those are the two principal arguments for vintage as I understand them. Perhaps more experienced hat nerds will offer further assistance.

The case for contemporary custom

1. Optimo Chicago. In my opinion, Optimo represents the highest level of contemporary hatmaking, using the finest felt available today. Optimo's prices, adjusted for inflation, are comparable to those of the highest-quality hats of the 1940s and ’50s.

The production economics differ, though. A factory divided work among specialists across large numbers of hats. A boutique workshop gives individual hats substantial attention from one hatter or a small team, with fewer opportunities to spread costs. Optimo is a boutique product. Vintage hats are, by definition, a mass-produced, assembly-line product.

2. Developments in felting. My understanding is that efforts to reproduce mercury’s felting advantages have included improvements in mechanical processing. Whether those efforts achieve comparable results depends on who you ask.

3. The ability to choose. You cannot order a particular vintage hat in another size, with a taller crown, a wider brim, or different felt and ribbon colors. You have to find that combination among the survivors. A custom hatter lets you specify those details within the materials and techniques available, often working directly with you.

That’s why I see two different problems. Even if a vintage hat has superior felt, it may not be the hat you want. Boutique craftsmanship offers the opportunity to have that hat made.

 

[Frunobulax]

I wonder if this is the consensus of the forum? Say, compared to Optimo or Gannon or Fawcett or Penman and other top custom makers, are the hats of yesteryear truly vastly superior?

Yes

 

[Judgmentalist]

Yes

Well there you have it - the consensus of the forum - I had hoped for more discussion on the topic but one takes what one gets I suppose lol

 

[Bamaboots]

What Jim said. And there are more threads like these.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/vintage-vs-custom.34862/post-697016

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/vintage-versus-modern-´quality´.76758/

 

[blewnote]

Well there you have it - the consensus of the forum - I had hoped for more discussion on the topic but one takes what one gets I suppose lol

There's been a ton of discussion on it here over the years, and I believe even recently. It's a bit like beating a dead horse, because it really is the consensus and it's correct. Obviously there are still great hats being made and many of the folks here that rave about vintage hats have Gannons and Northwest Hats, and Optimo etc. You're right, it's nice to make a custom hat, and you get to choose exactly what you want. But as good as they are they're just not as good as the old ones.

 

[Onomea]

I can’t speak for the consensus, but I find the question interesting. Here’s how I see the arguments.

Vintage hats and contemporary customs solve two different problems: finding an exceptional hat among what survives, and commissioning a hat to your specifications. Their advantages overlap, but they aren’t identical.

The case for vintage

1. Economies of scale. Everyday hat wearing once supported an enormous industry of specialized machinery, skilled workers, and dedicated suppliers. Manufacturers could spread the cost of elaborate processes across thousands of hats, making sophisticated construction and finishing economically practical.

A small contemporary shop cannot readily reproduce that manufacturing system, especially where equipment, suppliers, or specialized skills have disappeared. Mass production could support excellent craftsmanship at prices that would be difficult to match today.

2. Mercury. Another argument concerns mercury-based carroting: that it enabled tighter felting and consequently finer felt. Equally effective chemical substitutes would carry similar biological hazards, preventing safe reproduction of those results.

Those are the two principal arguments for vintage as I understand them. Perhaps more experienced hat nerds will offer further assistance.

The case for contemporary custom

1. Optimo Chicago. In my opinion, Optimo represents the highest level of contemporary hatmaking, using the finest felt available today. Optimo's prices, adjusted for inflation, are comparable to those of the highest-quality hats of the 1940s and ’50s.

The production economics differ, though. A factory divided work among specialists across large numbers of hats. A boutique workshop gives individual hats substantial attention from one hatter or a small team, with fewer opportunities to spread costs. Optimo is a boutique product. Vintage hats are, by definition, a mass-produced, assembly-line product.

2. Developments in felting. My understanding is that efforts to reproduce mercury’s felting advantages have included improvements in mechanical processing. Whether those efforts achieve comparable results depends on who you ask.

3. The ability to choose. You cannot order a particular vintage hat in another size, with a taller crown, a wider brim, or different felt and ribbon colors. You have to find that combination among the survivors. A custom hatter lets you specify those details within the materials and techniques available, often working directly with you.

That’s why I see two different problems. Even if a vintage hat has superior felt, it may not be the hat you want. Boutique craftsmanship offers the opportunity to have that hat made.

Thank you, Judgementalist, for taking the time to explain the argument/discussion to me. I also appreciate the other comments, and the link to earlier threads on the topic.

I’ve only been here a few days…. There is a lot to learn…. And enjoy!

 

[Judgmentalist]

There's been a ton of discussion on it here over the years, and I believe even recently. It's a bit like beating a dead horse, because it really is the consensus and it's correct. Obviously there are still great hats being made and many of the folks here that rave about vintage hats have Gannons and Northwest Hats, and Optimo etc. You're right, it's nice to make a custom hat, and you get to choose exactly what you want. But as good as they are they're just not as good as the old ones.

The two linked threads began in 2008 and 2011. I wonder whether anything has changed in the last couple decades?

Even in those halcyon early days, several respected voices—now enshrined in the halls of greatness—suggested that the gap between the best vintage hats and the best contemporary customs was narrower and more intangible than some enthusiasts would like to suggest. Art Fawcett cautioned against that blanket comparison and suggested that mercury’s contribution may have been overstated.

Yet the prevailing vibe sometimes seems to be that these mystical quality proclamations must be accepted as articles of faith. Experience deserves respect, but asking someone to explain and support a claim is not an insult to that experience. The stronger the claim, the stronger its supporting evidence should be.

The problem with guarding the temple against curious neophytes is that very few people want to join your cult in the first place. Why discourage the handful who actually share your interest? It's not beating a dead horse to involve new people in an existing conversation.

Revisiting old conversations is part of what keeps a forum alive. An old thread can inform a discussion without ending it. New members bring questions, new makers produce hats, and existing makers refine their work. Surely a comparison made in 2008 is open to reconsideration.

Many similar forums (for other interests) that I belonged to in the ancient days of the early 2000s no longer exist. The functionality has largely been consumed in the maw of social media.

A forum’s long memory is one of its few advantages—but that history is most useful when people are willing to discuss it, explain it, and occasionally question it.

 

[Judgmentalist]

Thank you, Judgementalist, for taking the time to explain the argument/discussion to me. I also appreciate the other comments, and the link to earlier threads on the topic.

I’ve only been here a few days…. There is a lot to learn…. And enjoy!

Happy to have provided some entertainment value, if nothing else! But I’d caution you against taking my description as the forum consensus. I’m trying to lay out the case for vintage felt’s claimed superiority in terms of what can actually be supported by evidence. Whether that has anything to do with the forum consensus is another question entirely, lol.

Also, I’m only about six months ahead of you on this particular learning curve. I’ve approached it deliberately and methodically, but there’s no substitute for time invested and firsthand experience.

 

[blewnote]

The two linked threads began in 2008 and 2011. I wonder whether anything has changed in the last couple decades?

Even in those halcyon early days, several respected voices—now enshrined in the halls of greatness—suggested that the gap between the best vintage hats and the best contemporary customs was narrower and more intangible than some enthusiasts would like to suggest. Art Fawcett cautioned against that blanket comparison and suggested that mercury’s contribution may have been overstated.

Yet the prevailing vibe sometimes seems to be that these mystical quality proclamations must be accepted as articles of faith. Experience deserves respect, but asking someone to explain and support a claim is not an insult to that experience. The stronger the claim, the stronger its supporting evidence should be.

The problem with guarding the temple against curious neophytes is that very few people want to join your cult in the first place. Why discourage the handful who actually share your interest? It's not beating a dead horse to involve new people in an existing conversation.

Revisiting old conversations is part of what keeps a forum alive. An old thread can inform a discussion without ending it. New members bring questions, new makers produce hats, and existing makers refine their work. Surely a comparison made in 2008 is open to reconsideration.

Many similar forums (for other interests) that I belonged to in the ancient days of the early 2000s no longer exist. The functionality has largely been consumed in the maw of social media.

A forum’s long memory is one of its few advantages—but that history is most useful when people are willing to discuss it, explain it, and occasionally question it.

I get what you're saying, and certainly many parts of this site are difficult to access as originally intended (so many missing pictures, and links that take you to "System Upgrade: Please Login" screen so the old conversations are hard to follow.

But you remind me of when I first posted here, asking what modern hat company I should try to purchase from because I didn't want to spend what a modern hat RTW cost at the time ($200-300) on a vintage hat and get a piece of junk, or one that didn't fit. And dropping (at a minimum) $400 on a custom hat when I didn't even know my size or what style I liked was similarly unimaginable. All the old heads told me I should try to get a vintage hat but I just couldn't bring myself to do it and bought an Akubra and a Selentino. And was disappointed by both. And then I started buying vintage and learning what to look for and getting a feel for whether something will be worth it or not.

As I said when this was discussed (by you I believe) recently, I have not handled an Optimo, so I can't compare them, but even my Northwest Hat, which I love and is a great hat, isn't as nice as the nicer vintage hats I have. Hell, it's not even as nice as the unbranded hat I picked up that came from the Brenk Bros store in Milwaukee (of unknown maker and age). I don't think that there's some mystical quality that mercury carrotted hats possess, although the felt probably is nicer in some ways than things that came later. But what vintage hats had, up until about the 1960s, was an entire industry devoted to them. These were everyday objects that were bought by millions of people. Everyone wore hats. So even the cheap ones were pretty decent by today's standards.

Can you make felt that is as good as the old stuff today? Maybe? If you were able to source the right kinds of hare and beaver or nutria and get it made by people that know instinctually how to felt capelines of the highest quality because they worked with the raw materials and machinery used to make the finished product so much that they knew what to do.

(For example: I'm reading Hat Talk by Debbie Henderson and the first interviewee, who worked for Mallory, is asked where the fur came from and he says France, but it used to come from wild hares from Australia but then the government felt that the wild hare population was out of control and culled it so they had to start sourcing from France. The hares in France were a by product of the food industry and he complains that the fur they got from them was greasy. They had to scrape the grease off to try and make good felt. Then they figured out how to dry clean the fur to get rid of the grease and that made better felt. And they started supplying soap companies with the grease they removed. So even then they were starting to be constrained by the inputs, but were able to still make it work because the demand was so high.)

Can you get sweatbands that are as good? I have yet to handle a modern sweatband that seems as nice as the nicer vintage ones I have. Did they tan them differently? I don't know. I just know the newer ones don't seem quite as good. Could you make modern ones as good? Probably? I'm not an expert in leatherworking, but that seems less likely to have lost the skills and raw materials necessary than felt making. But if you can, why are they not as nice? Maybe it's because to the cost to produce the "good" stuff is more than the industry is willing to bear in current market conditions.

Can you get ribbon from a modern source that is equal to the vintage stuff? Again, maybe, but there's a reason that custom hatters have extensive stockpiles of vintage ribbons.

The simple truth is that as less and less people wanted to wear hats, the economy of scale for the raw inputs of hatting went away. It doesn't take away from the skill of Michael Gannon or Graham Thompson or Mike Miller or Cody Wellema, but they just can't get the same quality of raw materials that companies could in the 1950s and earlier. Is a good vintage hat miles beyond an Optimo, probably not. But is a Knox Twenty from the 1920s/30s a better hat? I'd say yes.

 

[jlee562]

What is the "evidence" that would be satisfactory?

This question was also posed slightly differently in a different thread the other day, 'what do you want, lab tests?'



The benchmark for me Is this Stetson, with the caveat that it has been rebuilt by VS. I put a diamond crease into this hat with no steam whatsoever. You will often find the "molds like clay" description in those past discussions. This felt is that. And it's one of those things where first I got a 60's Resistol and then think 'ooh, well this is that nice felt.' Then I got a 50's *******, and then I thought 'ooh, well this is actually the good stuff.' Finally I ended up with some pre-war hats.

The other thing to note is the brim curl. Basically all pencil rolled brims these days have the edge turned straight up, perpendicular to the brim. But this is an actual rolled brim where the shape of the finished curl (on the sides) is actually more cylindrical in shape, as if it were, you know, rolled. Stetson can't even do this anymore...or if they can, they've chosen not to put the time and effort in whenever they do a limited Boss Raw Edge run.

Just another one of those things that is effectively lost to time. The others being the Cavanagh edge, and the D'orsay curl. Bob at Blacksheep and Mike at Northwest hats have gotten really close on the latter, but like, it's not something Optimo has come out to offer as option, for example.

One comparison: this 1922 Stetson, that derives from the Boss of the Plains shape. The original owner had put a campaign crease in because the hat was designed with less stiffener in the crown, while the brim is still straight as a board after more than a century. I also have a modern BOP replica done in 6x felt. I would not even dare try to put a crease into that crown because there is so much stiffener.




I don't have a modern hat that comes close to the black Stetson. My Optimo is not a silver beaver, so I can't speak to those. But my Dillinger does not shape like this. I've built two hats now with 100% beaver FEPSA felts, and those hats finish very well, but I can't dry crease them. The best modern felt I've handled in terms of shapeability is actually my Stetson Excellent Quality Fortune and Glory. That one holds a Hollywood brim swoop which is not something I've seen in other modern hats. The lightweight felt Art used for my ******* was very good, but it takes a 100% beaver felt to mimic the qualities of a hat that was offered in the lowest quality grades back in the day. $5 adjusted for inflation from 1942 comes to $106. The VS ******* was much more than that.

Is it close to vintage quality? I mean, I'm not breaking out a microscope, but for the sake of discussion let's just say yes. But again, this is a beaver felt that has been blocked and finished by a master hatter. Whereas a vintage ******* was something they pumped out millions of (at least according to their ad) in the least expensive Royal grade. And they're still one of the most popular collector hats.

Can an individual hatter get close on this, that, or the other? Sure, in that oblique sense there are modern hats that can hold their own against vintage, or even be better in some metrics than some older hats. But nobody is producing anything at scale that can match what was being produced back then. Comparing the modern Royal Deluxe to the vintage Royal *******, even though it's ostensibly a higher grade, the modern felt won't accept a crease without steam, where the ******* will. Compared to a Royal Stetson Deluxe that Bob at BSHW told me was a mercury felt, what sticks out as the main difference is how much of a softer hand the older felt has. There is no apples to apples comparison really, but this is moving through time on the same relative quality level. As opposed to comparing the best of what can currently be achieved vs an older factory hat.

But let's even say that Optimos are equivalent. It takes the most expensive felt grade currently produced to get hats that behave like vintage hats of lesser grades and furs. And even this is just one part of the discussion, because I didn't even mention the European velours and other long hair finishes that I know much less about.

 

[Onomea]

Really enjoying the discussion. Keep ‘em comin’!

 

[jlee562]

Whoops, forgot the forum was going to censor P l a y b o y