Ask a question, get an answer

[Robieman]

CANNOT wait to see it!!!!!!

Me too buddy. I will post pics as soon as I can.

 

[Zombie_61]

...If nothing else, it is one I do not have.

That's a good enough reason to buy a hat. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

 

[Bamaboots]

I will tell you I just purchased this hat,

The man's on a roll. Looks oil skin to me, Rob. Good get. The solid manila keyhole tag indicates one of the ovals.

 

[Robieman]

The man's on a roll. Looks oil skin to me, Rob. Good get. The solid manila keyhole tag indicates one of the ovals.

I may have described the keyhole tag incorrectly, Bama. It is the black keyhole with the manila border. It is difficult to tell the liner material, because of the blurred pic. It does look like the oilskin, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. But we will find out here before too long, and I will post it so we can all figure it out together. Thank you buddy.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

well if that's a FEPSA I'd love to get my hands on a TONAK then those most be velvety smooth. Wonder how they fair compared to vintages

Hufvud offers 100% beaver from FEPSA. Another reasonably priced option.


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[Just Jim]

Are you hoping to make a hat from scratch on this block, or just reshape existing crowns? If it's the first one, you need to consider how you'll flange the brim as well. A member, deadlyhandsome, brought that point to mind for me when I was fabricating blocks with no concern about them meeting industry norms. I'm very glad he did.

I've no desire to make hats from scratch, I just want to be able to size hats to fit me. Amongst others there's a Stetson 100 and a Resistol San Antonio sitting here that are exactly what I want, if they were the sizes they were sold as. Brims aren't a problem: since I'm just doing this for myself, I can make the flange to suit. On both I can lose a little brim width and still be OK.

I might be able to stretch a couple of them to fit without getting drastic, but when I've done that in the past I've had them wind up looking deformed. I'd rather punch the crown out and re-size all the way up.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I've no desire to make hats from scratch, I just want to be able to size hats to fit me. Amongst others there's a Stetson 100 and a Resistol San Antonio sitting here that are exactly what I want, if they were the sizes they were sold as. Brims aren't a problem: since I'm just doing this for myself, I can make the flange to suit. On both I can lose a little brim width and still be OK.

I might be able to stretch a couple of them to fit without getting drastic, but when I've done that in the past I've had them wind up looking deformed. I'd rather punch the crown out and re-size all the way up.

They are your hats, and no one will dispute that you have the right to modify them. However, most around here cringe at the idea of taking a vintage and/or rare hat and significantly and permanently modifying it. Such hats stop being what they were intended to be and become something else, something less. Your One-Hundred will cease to be a true One-Hundred and become a hat made from a One-Hundred felt. Block shape and height, brims, sweatbands, etc. all go into defining the hat. Obviously, if your talking about an exact restoration that’s a different kettle of fish.

Could you sell the unmodified hats and keep looking for the specimens in your size? Most of us understand replacing the sweatband when it completely fails, and that too is an permanent altering modification. I guess all I’d say is to take your time. In the end, they’re only hats, and they are yours to do with as you please.


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[Hat and Rehat]

They are your hats, and no one will dispute that you have the right to modify them. However, most around here cringe at the idea of taking a vintage and/or rare hat and significantly and permanently ....
... Most of us understand replacing the sweatband when it completely fails, and that too is an permanent altering modification. I guess all I’d say is to take your time. In the end, they’re only hats, and they are yours to do with as you please.

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You gave me similar counsel a while back, Brent. I wasn't even talking about modifying a 100 on a homemade block. I think you're making important points that ought to be made. Then again, other discussions I've seen you participate in during the intervening time period since cautioning me, make me feel it's far from the hard and fast rule you present it as when making the plea you just made. To be fair, you did mention 'conversions' when I heard this from you the first time, but putting that label on it doesn't alter the fact that a vintage hat is being irreversibly changed into something other than what it was made to be. You landed a sweet little bundle of "Religious" Borsalinos, and started talking about cutting the brims immediately. There may have been Hasidic Rabbis in Jerusalem cringing, yanking their forelocks and wailing at the Wall, over it.
That blue patio umbrella that had you smiling like a Colorado marijuana tourist, and that was an undeniably singular hat, also was destined to have A lot of it's shade shorn. Shrinking a felt was recently raised. You recommended some one who could do the job. In that discussion another Lounger described significant size reduction of more than one vintage hat.
All of this does seem to raise legitimate questions. I already have my own personal guidelines, but when do you think it's right to make a vintage hat into something different than it was, and even less than it was according to your own words?
I think it's a fair question to ask you.

 

[Just Jim]

They are your hats, and no one will dispute that you have the right to modify them. However, most around here cringe at the idea of taking a vintage and/or rare hat and significantly and permanently modifying it. Such hats stop being what they were intended to be and become something else, something less. Your One-Hundred will cease to be a true One-Hundred and become a hat made from a One-Hundred felt. Block shape and height, brims, sweatbands, etc. all go into defining the hat. Obviously, if your talking about an exact restoration that’s a different kettle of fish.

Could you sell the unmodified hats and keep looking for the specimens in your size? Most of us understand replacing the sweatband when it completely fails, and that too is an permanent altering modification. I guess all I’d say is to take your time. In the end, they’re only hats, and they are yours to do with as you please.

I guess I could sell these and keep looking for hats my size--how hard will it be to find a Stetson 100 western in the 7 1/2 LO--7 5/8 range? Same question on the San Antonio, with the added confound of the special order brim width? In these two models, in the 3+ years I've been seriously searching, these were the only ones I ran across that even came close (and they were sold as being 7 5/8 and 7 1/2 LO, respectively).

Over those years I've re-read my way through most of the posts from the beginning of the Hats forum (I'd been an occasional lurker for more than a decade). I probably wouldn't have considered something this drastic were there not so many threads discussing re-sizing/re-working/converting vintage hats. I'm not going into this blindly: I've accumulated other hats that are closer in size (7 1/2s) that I'll experiment with, and a couple more 7 3/8s that I'll use for proof-of-concept before I re-shape the San Antonio and 100. I just figured I'd have a better chance of doing so successfully if I understood how much draft is necessary to ease the removal of a felt that has shrunk in place on a block.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

You gave me similar counsel a while back, Brent. I wasn't even talking about modifying a 100 on a homemade block. I think you're making important points that ought to be made. Then again, other discussions I've seen you participate in during the intervening time period since cautioning me, make me feel it's far from the hard and fast rule you present it as when making the plea you just made. To be fair, you did mention 'conversions' when I heard this from you the first time, but putting that label on it doesn't alter the fact that a vintage hat is being irreversibly changed into something other than what it was made to be. You landed a sweet little bundle of "Religious" Borsalinos, and started talking about cutting the brims immediately. There may have been Hasidic Rabbis in Jerusalem cringing, yanking their forelocks and wailing at the Wall, over it.
That blue patio umbrella that had you smiling like a Colorado marijuana tourist, and that was an undeniably singular hat, also was destined to have A lot of it's shade shorn. Shrinking a felt was recently raised. You recommended some one who could do the job. In that discussion another Lounger described significant size reduction of more than one vintage hat.
All of this does seem to raise legitimate questions. I already have my own personal guidelines, but when do you think it's right to make a vintage hat into something different than it was, and even less than it was according to your own words?
I think it's a fair question to ask you.[/

I don’t know where your “homemade block” comment came from as I didn’t mention it. I was just implying that part of the original aspect of the hat was the specific block used. I’ll support your right to do whatever you want with your own hats. The black Borsalinos and the blue AzTex are far from what most here call vintage or rare. I’m fine with modifying them, but others might not be. None of my hats considered for alteration fodder are “singular.” I was just voicing an opinion and not lecturing; cut your hats up into confetti if you want. It’s a truism that they aren’t making anything vintage again, but I personally feel that some hats should be preserved. Feel free to disagree.

As to my personal feelings on the matter, the older and rarer the hat them more reluctant I am to modify it. I don’t, however, have a fixed scale to provide you. What I’m willing to do to a common hat from the 1990s is different from what I’d do to a rare hat form 1910. Sorry, but I don’t have a formula. I don’t have know if there is a “rule,” but a philosophy of appreciation and preservation of vintage items. I’ll take your word that I’ve voiced similar opinion in the past; I don’t recall it.

As for others who have mentioned altering hats don’t presume that they haven’t been questioned or had strong opinions voiced in response to their actions. It’s a tricky thing where collectors hear of someone altering the objects they collect (I haven’t heard of a collector of 1990s Hasidic hats).

I’m certainly more accepting of altering some older hats than others are, but I fully support the individual’s right to make all those decisions. I’ll also confess to a bit of hypocrisy, but I try to keep that quiet.

 

[jlee562]

Re: vintage mods

It's a discussion that's been had. Careful observers might pick up that certain posters don't appear in conversion threads, and likewise that the conversions mostly appear in the conversions thread (aside from "What hat are you wearing today"). A deeper read of the lounge and one might pick up on the number of contributors to the lounge's collective knowledge that are no longer present.

I've definitely grown a greater appreciation for the sentiment that it's only original once. Certainly some hats should be rescued with a replacement sweat, liner, or rebuilding. It's not as if they were not refurbished historically. The Scientific Hat Finishing book is basically a pamphlet on how to set up your own hat refurbishment shop.

But if it doesn't need to be rebuilt, it's only original once.

(Though to be sure, there's a world of difference between a modern black Borso and a Stetson 100. One of these things not like the other)

 

[Hat and Rehat]

That's a fair response. I think you and I would find we agree much more than we disagree. But I'm also glad I asked the question, because this is a very nuanced subject.
What you said to Jim was a lot like what you said to me. I appreciate that you said it to me. It couldn't hurt by any means, and if I was some Mad Hatter seeking out rare collectibles to tear down like Confederate statues, someone needed to stand in the gap, warning me of the inevitable resitance, being despised by collectors, etc..
I tried to bring the matter up in a light handed way, because our differences may be more liquistic than anything. The last thing I was trying to do was accuse you of hypocrisy. You took more time than anyone else to help me find my way around these forums when I first registered. I'm very grateful.
Communicating like this, in written word, lacking voice intonation, facial expression, a wink and a nod or smile, we don't always convey our tone in the way we hoped, or even believed we did.
Tasked now with trying to interpret your tone, I worry that you seemed to have gone on the defensive a bit. I must have failed at getting my own friendly overtures across. Oh no!
It can turn into an excersize in chasing rabbits. So let me back up.
You were the most helpful Lounger when I came, and you were also the one who most suggested I cool my jets, mainly because you were the most involved with me, period. The entire tone dilemna comes into play. Is deadlyhandsom being a friendly mentor, or some sort of gatekeeper? You might have never seen yourself like either, or considered that someone might interpret you that way.
See what I mean?
So, let me say, it's possible for someone on the recieving end of this modification of vintage hats talk to feel that you're being a bit preachy, even if that was never your intention.
Maybe the word vintage is so broad that we miss the mark at times. The state tells us what a vintage car is, and we save money on tags and taxes. Vintage hats are different, but they are still pieces of history that deserve preservation. One sad thing about our American cities is that in the American dream of bigger, better, faster, many historic buildings were razed to erect the latest 'advancement', and we lost some valuable touchstones to our past. After a lot of it was gone, historical societies managed to carve out Historic Districts.
I don't picture hat permits and inspectors, so we have to work it out by convincing one another. You seem to use 'vintage' interchangeably with 'collectable'. I use it depicting age, and might qualify it with collectable. I wasnt' trying to call you on anything, but did hope to open this kind of discussion. What makes something old worth preserving and collecting? Age alone? Historical Societies never sweat bullets about old rat infested tenements. Scarcity? There are a lot less Yugos on the road today, but no campaign to save them from the crusher. I could crush one tomorrow and people would be more likely to thank me than condemn me.
Maybe we need to discuss more which hats resemble Yugos, and why.
Peace, hat brother!

PS
I hope you're right about the Hasidim. Have you heard what their remedy is for transgressions?



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[Hat and Rehat]

I've no desire to make hats from scratch, I just want to be able to size hats to fit me. Amongst others there's a Stetson 100 and a Resistol San Antonio sitting here that are exactly what I want, if they were the sizes they were sold as. Brims aren't a problem: since I'm just doing this for myself, I can make the flange to suit. On both I can lose a little brim width and still be OK.

I might be able to stretch a couple of them to fit without getting drastic, but when I've done that in the past I've had them wind up looking deformed. I'd rather punch the crown out aand re-size all the way up.

Sorry I got sidetracked, Jim. To answer your question, I think you'll be able to get the felt off of a block darn close to plumb, using a building term. A block someone would make crowns ranging from 5" to 7" on would have 2" of that or the oval would change sizes. Hatters work a blocked crown off with a slipstick. Drawings in Epetinger's book from 1910 show what looks like a carved, rounded wooden knife. Something like a letter opener might be great substitute if you made sure to round off the pointed tip. My mother used to have a frosting knife to spread cake icing. It was thin, flat, about 1" wide, and rounded on the end. Sandpaper and a paint stir stick could probably get you there too, though those aren't made from wood anywhere near what they used to use.

You didn't give us background, and the question was a little unusual, so I did wonder if you were going into this with little requisite knowledge. That's why I raised the points I did, and probably why you were discouraged by others. What you've shared since then has acquitted you of any suspicion as far as I'm concerned re:being some kind of yahoo charging in with no research. You already know that people here don't all agree. Stretching is a great case in point. Some Loungers insist it doesn't work unless you keep the hat on the stretcher whenever it isn't on your head. Others say it doesn't work, you'll just blow out all of the sweatband stitches. Then other's say, wait a minute, I stretched this hat and that hat, this much, with no problem. Then someone says, you had to have ruined the taper. Then pictures seem to show no harm to the taper. Everybody drops it until it comes up again.

You mentioned some nice hats. I presume you admire them for their lines as much as their felt. If you block the crowns radically different than they began, you will change the lines. I'd hate to see you unhappy with the results of your efforts, particularly on hats that don't usually exchange hands for pocket change. If I were in your shoes, I would push the creases out of those hats and study the shape of the crowns. You'll get a pretty good idea of the shape they were blocked. Then I would ask, what's the least I would have to do to alter that shape and get the fit I want? Instead of asking how far I can take it, I would ask myself how far I absolutely have to take it.

That's my 2 bits. Remember what it cost you.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

That's a fair response. I think you and I would find we agree much more than we disagree. But I'm also glad I asked the question, because this is a very nuanced subject.
What you said to Jim was a lot like what you said to me. I appreciate that you said it to me. It couldn't hurt by any means, and if I was some Mad Hatter seeking out rare collectibles to tear down like Confederate statues, someone needed to stand in the gap, warning me of the inevitable resitance, being despised by collectors, etc..
I tried to bring the matter up in a light handed way, because our differences may be more liquistic than anything. The last thing I was trying to do was accuse you of hypocrisy. You took more time than anyone else to help me find my way around these forums when I first registered. I'm very grateful.
Communicating like this, in written word, lacking voice intonation, facial expression, a wink and a nod or smile, we don't always convey our tone in the way we hoped, or even believed we did.
Tasked now with trying to interpret your tone, I worry that you seemed to have gone on the defensive a bit. I must have failed at getting my own friendly overtures across. Oh no!
It can turn into an excersize in chasing rabbits. So let me back up.
You were the most helpful Lounger when I came, and you were also the one who most suggested I cool my jets, mainly because you were the most involved with me, period. The entire tone dilemna comes into play. Is deadlyhandsom being a friendly mentor, or some sort of gatekeeper? You might have never seen yourself like either, or considered that someone might interpret you that way.
See what I mean?
So, let me say, it's possible for someone on the recieving end of this modification of vintage hats talk to feel that you're being a bit preachy, even if that was never your intention.
Maybe the word vintage is so broad that we miss the mark at times. The state tells us what a vintage car is, and we save money on tags and taxes. Vintage hats are different, but they are still pieces of history that deserve preservation. One sad thing about our American cities is that in the American dream of bigger, better, faster, many historic buildings were razed to erect the latest 'advancement', and we lost some valuable touchstones to our past. After a lot of it was gone, historical societies managed to carve out Historic Districts.
I don't picture hat permits and inspectors, so we have to work it out by convincing one another. You seem to use 'vintage' interchangeably with 'collectable'. I use it depicting age, and might qualify it with collectable. I wasnt' trying to call you on anything, but did hope to open this kind of discussion. What makes something old worth preserving and collecting? Age alone? Historical Societies never sweat bullets about old rat infested tenements. Scarcity? There are a lot less Yugos on the road today, but no campaign to save them from the crusher. I could crush one tomorrow and people would be more likely to thank me than condemn me.
Maybe we need to discuss more which hats resemble Yugos, and why.
Peace, hat brother!

PS
I hope you're right about the Hasidim. Have you heard what their remedy is for transgressions?



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So many of the long time members and really knowledgeable folks have shown me great patience. We are all some place on the continuum of learning, and we all have more to learn. It’s also predictable that we won’t all agree on all matters. I know I regularly disregard some members and overlook boorish behavior, but I have also learned from those I don’t hold in much esteem.

I’m enthusiastic about hats, but I can’t claim any expertise. I also don’t suppose that my opinions or ways of looking at things are the only valid ones. Because it’s acceptable in this venue, I’ll voice opinions, but I don’t much care if they are not agreed with.

We all have some capacity for hypocrisy; I know I do. Being a husband and father I’m often lovingly reminded of my hypocrisy.

I also fully believe in individual rights and personal freedoms. I might not like what some do with their own property, but I’ll fight for their right to do it. I’m not much of a communal ownership kind of guy.


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[deadlyhandsome]

Bought a Connor felt Indiana Jones hat that is XL for heads 60-61cm. I thought I was 60cm. But maybe lost some weight, held the tape wrong, cut my hair shorter, not sure, but I now measure at a solid 59cm. Anyways the hat was a bit too big. It was okay with some sizing tape, but never felt quite right being held on my head by foam. Anyways I was a bit self conscious to wear the hat out. Tried it on after 6 months sitting in a warm closet and it fits much better, I took out half the tape. I also bought a 7-1/2 (for 60cm head)Tilley wanderer and it was too small. Plus for the money, also not all at impressed with quality and had to return it.

Now I'm looking at a Cotton Stetson Fedora or a Filson cloth tin packer. A lot of reviews say Stetson runs Large, and I'm not sure about Filson. If I get a cloth hat that size too big Will it shrink? I live over seas and can't afford returns. Also if Stetson runs Large anyways is it safe to assume that the Large size at 59 cm will actually be a lil big for me at first?

Unfortunately, it’s not safe to assume anything regarding fit. Is there any way you can try them on before buying? There are small variations in fit even within the same model so it’s always preferable to try them on. Otherwise, choose a retailer with a liberal return policy. I know this isn’t what you wanted to hear, but my experience is that there is little consistency in sizing. Good luck.


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[belfastboy]

I was a teenager all throughout the 1960's and a big car guy. It was the age of the 'chop and channel' of vintage automobiles. It became very much an art form and never did I hear a peep of push back regarding destroying vintage autos. I view hats in a similar light. Cars like hats are similar in that modern Stetsons are not likely to become collectables and neither will my 2010 Hyundai. But if you come across a barn find you have the right to rebuild, customize or alter in any way that fits for you. You own it then it is yours to do with as you please. I say this at a distance as I am def not a vintage hat collector.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

^^^Bryan:
Measure your head again as accurately as possible 3 times with a good tailor’s tape and see if it’s the same. If not average the three or measure some more. Buy the size hat closest of whatever hat brand. That’s the best you can do.
Trying to predict brand size variability based on what people say will lead you to many hat returns.
I’ve often heard said Borsalino’s fit small to size. I have several that fit large to size.
I also have several Stetsons (vintage) smaller than the tagged size, larger than tag size and some just right.
I have no reason to believe modern hats will be different. Time will tell.
Just my experiences. YMMV
Bowen

 

[Frunobulax]

That's a fair response. I think you and I would find we agree much more than we disagree. But I'm also glad I asked the question, because this is a very nuanced subject.
What you said to Jim was a lot like what you said to me. I appreciate that you said it to me. It couldn't hurt by any means, and if I was some Mad Hatter seeking out rare collectibles to tear down like Confederate statues, someone needed to stand in the gap, warning me of the inevitable resitance, being despised by collectors, etc..
I tried to bring the matter up in a light handed way, because our differences may be more liquistic than anything. The last thing I was trying to do was accuse you of hypocrisy. You took more time than anyone else to help me find my way around these forums when I first registered. I'm very grateful.
Communicating like this, in written word, lacking voice intonation, facial expression, a wink and a nod or smile, we don't always convey our tone in the way we hoped, or even believed we did.
Tasked now with trying to interpret your tone, I worry that you seemed to have gone on the defensive a bit. I must have failed at getting my own friendly overtures across. Oh no!
It can turn into an excersize in chasing rabbits. So let me back up.
You were the most helpful Lounger when I came, and you were also the one who most suggested I cool my jets, mainly because you were the most involved with me, period. The entire tone dilemna comes into play. Is deadlyhandsom being a friendly mentor, or some sort of gatekeeper? You might have never seen yourself like either, or considered that someone might interpret you that way.
See what I mean?
So, let me say, it's possible for someone on the recieving end of this modification of vintage hats talk to feel that you're being a bit preachy, even if that was never your intention.
Maybe the word vintage is so broad that we miss the mark at times. The state tells us what a vintage car is, and we save money on tags and taxes. Vintage hats are different, but they are still pieces of history that deserve preservation. One sad thing about our American cities is that in the American dream of bigger, better, faster, many historic buildings were razed to erect the latest 'advancement', and we lost some valuable touchstones to our past. After a lot of it was gone, historical societies managed to carve out Historic Districts.
I don't picture hat permits and inspectors, so we have to work it out by convincing one another. You seem to use 'vintage' interchangeably with 'collectable'. I use it depicting age, and might qualify it with collectable. I wasnt' trying to call you on anything, but did hope to open this kind of discussion. What makes something old worth preserving and collecting? Age alone? Historical Societies never sweat bullets about old rat infested tenements. Scarcity? There are a lot less Yugos on the road today, but no campaign to save them from the crusher. I could crush one tomorrow and people would be more likely to thank me than condemn me.
Maybe we need to discuss more which hats resemble Yugos, and why.
Peace, hat brother!

PS
I hope you're right about the Hasidim. Have you heard what their remedy is for transgressions?



Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

I haven't weighed in on this, but an observation.

Around here, "vintage" has come to be regarded as "back when they made them right." While a Stetson from 1975 is "vintage," when most of us are talking vintage, we primarily mean pre-1960 or so.

Hatmaking skills seriously deteriorated after that, with a few exceptions. So those of us who collect and amass consider those hats, for the most part, collectible.

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[AbbaDatDeHat]

I haven't weighed in on this, but an observation.

Around here, "vintage" has come to be regarded as "back when they made them right." While a Stetson from 1975 is "vintage," when most of us are talking vintage, we primarily mean pre-1960 or so.

Hatmaking skills seriously deteriorated after that, with a few exceptions. So those of us who collect and amass consider those hats, for the most part, collectible.

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I agree with what Jim says.
Also, i’ll add, that as soon as one tries to define collectable vintage in hat’s or anything else for that matter, the result will be as varied as the personal preferences we are all biased by.
B

 

[Hat and Rehat]

So many of the long time members and really knowledgeable folks have shown me great patience. We are all some place on the continuum of learning, and we all have more to learn. It’s also predictable that we won’t all agree on all matters. I know I regularly disregard some members and overlook boorish behavior, but I have also learned from those I don’t hold in much esteem.

I’m enthusiastic about hats, but I can’t claim any expertise. I also don’t suppose that my opinions or ways of looking at things are the only valid ones. Because it’s acceptable in this venue, I’ll voice opinions, but I don’t much care if they are not agreed with.

We all have some capacity for hypocrisy; I know I do. Being a husband and father I’m often lovingly reminded of my hypocrisy.

I also fully believe in individual rights and personal freedoms. I might not like what some do with their own property, but I’ll fight for their right to do it. I’m not much of a communal ownership kind of guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ok. I'm just getting worried I'll have to play Hank Reardon to your John Galt. <G>

We have even more in common than I previously suspected.
I'm very glad we have to work this out ourselves through persuassion rather than, "There oughta be a law."
Some of my exhuberance right now, of which there's a lot compared to earlier times in my life, comes from the fact I'm not only fleeing a very painful realization that I'm increasingly unable to perform physically at things I always felt able to hold my own at previously.
I have, since my first venture online when we bought a PC in 1999, been arguing with people about free markets. I suspect few people are more radical than I am on the subject of intellectual property rights.
But, that's all I want to say about it. I've said enough.
I want to talk hats.

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