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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
I must admit a disconnect when I hear of folks removing the reed from their sweatband for comfort, as I have never considered it. I have never had an uncomfortable hat which was caused by the reed and no desire to second-guess the proper construction of the hat by the maker. Reeded sweats were, as I see it, introduced to allow for a bit more structure in the hat (allowing it to keep it's shape) and (I presume) a better production design that required less effort/labor to attach to the hat.

As to your hat which has shrunk, going from a 7 1/8 to 6 7/8 should result in warping of the leather sweatband, as having leather shrink to that degree unmolested would be highly unusual. Could it have had a new sweatband installed? And what do you mean by "shrink the flange?"

I wouldn't remove a reed for fit either. I have a pretty symetrical, regular oval head. Hats fit me well off the shelf, though I have tried some with gaps in an area or two. Imagine if your head was outside of the statistical norm though. It might be frustrating if you couldn't find a hat that fit without padding it out with foam or something every single time, or purchase only custom conformed hats for at least 5 times the price of off the shelf.
A reed, particularly a modern, plastic one, would probably extend the break in period of a standard hat to a custom head. That was why the question of non reeded hats was raised in thisvthread to begin with.

I think you're right about reeded sweats bringing down labor costs to a degree. Even the earliest machines could sew the leather to the reed tape, then a wide chain stitch could affix it to a hat by hand much faster than careful, close hand stitching around the perimeter of the crown. I'm less sure about it being to give a hat form or structure. Only those of us with standard heads might find that beneficial.
There's another benefit of reeded sweats though. The reed tape started as silk coated with something resistant to moisture, then evolved to a vinyl like fabric. When the system is sewn in correctly the tape functions as a barier to perspiration migrating from your head to the felt or straw. Without the reed and tape, sweat could move directly from the leather to the felt. With it, it could only move into the threads connecting tape and leather. Then completely different thread connects the tape to the felt, so there's no path from head to hat body. Of course, not all hatters seem to understand this feature of the design. They sew through the same holes to mount leather to tape and tape to hat body, which creates a path for perspiration to make it into the felt, via the threads.

I agree with your conclusion about felt and leather shrinking in unison. That's why I bought the hat on eBay even though the seller said it was really small, maybe 6 1/2, but used to be 7 1/8 (my size). The pictures didnt show a wavy connection, so I said, No Way the hat shrank that much! The leather wouldn't shrink equally with the felt.
It isn't 6 1/2. More like 6 7/8, which is still a size and a half. I'm having to do forensics in an attempt to figure it out.
The sweat gives every indication of being original. It's Stetson, embossed Stratoliner, and I believe Royal Deluxe (I'm out of town and can't check) and has an Arkansas store on the opposite side. The wear is consistent with an early Strat, and the fade lines after removing the skinny ribbon, as well as the thread securing it, say that it's original and unmolested. How do you replace a sweat without removing the band?
The reed tape at the underbrim is worn to the point of looking like woven fabric, with the coating gone. There's no reed, but there's vertigris at the back. That tells me there was once a ferule. The stitching between tape and felt was only done once, or someone took great care to use only the old holes, both basting and stitching to secure it.
If you have a conclusion other than it all being original I'd be interested to hear it.
My speculation runs this way. Someone became owner of the hat after the original owner. Maybe it was Dad's hat, but Son's head was smaller. The reed, usually stitched to ride just outside the flange, would have helped hold the hat away from junior's scull, so he clipped it at the ferule and pulled it out. Now the softer hat could be formed to his head easier. Maybe a pin or few stitches helped. Maybe a local hatter helped by protecting the leather while heat drying wet felt to shrink it. Maybe one even cut a little bit out of the leather at the seam and stitched it smaller, though he did it so nicely you can't tell, but nothing indicates this is true. Even the small bow seems to be stitched original. I suppose if the felt was successfully shrunk to a 6 7/8 from a 7 1/8, the leather might conform itself over time.
I dont know, and its still a mystery to some degree.
I plan to condition the leather then measure it and try to stretch it to 22 1/2. If it works I'd like to put that leather on a new tape with reed to keep it as original as possible. It separated from the old tape in places, but it was failed thread, not leather. Ill probably shave the top where the current holes are, about 1/8", then zig zag it with light tension so it can be turned out and back in. Maybe I'll even consider patching a little more leather in at the back seam, gluing fabric behind it for strength. Presently this is planned to remain a personal hat, but I purchased a Pilgrim OR clone that was sold by Sears at the same time as the Stratoliner. It's a very nice hat!
I heard good things about the JC Penny's hats, but nothing about the Sears, but the specimen I own is an equal to the Marathons I've handled.
Though, I digress from the original question about Stetson making non reeded hats.

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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
If you get a rather large funnel, say one used for automotives and a fine paint strainer it’s easy to pour filtered naptha back into the original containers. I just label, used dark, light on the can. The perfect gas bath container is still out there. Very illusive!
An aside: why in the world would you ever want to pull the reed out of a sweatband??
B
Sigh.

I didn't do it. I bought a hat that way. I brought it up because someone asked about non reeded sweats because he had a hard time fitting reeded ones to his head. Maybe he can buy an old beater and give it a try. I'm blessed with a pretty standard head, so dont have any need to try it.

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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
Sometimes liners fade in naptha, but usually they come out fine. It’s best to take them out, but if they’re stitched in I hate removing them.


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I'm reluctant too, but naptha bathing the liner of my Cavanaugh with the odious odor seems to have been the correct course of action.

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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
I have a 24” diameter aluminum stock pot with lid. It works great. Reclaiming the naptha is a two person job (for me) and I use a funnel and coffee filters. Like Bowen, I keep naptha dedicated to light colored hats separate from that used on dark color felt.


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That's a good idea. I have pretty big stock pots laying around.
You made me think of perhaps a better solution. Old pressure cookers would seal tight enough to both soak and store.

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Rmccamey

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,838
Location
Central Texas
I have a 50's Stetson Fifteen in much the same shape. The tag says 7 but I know it is down one size and possibly two. The sweat is warped as if the 2 inch band or the felt has shrunk arond it. The felt and band look perfectly fine making me wonder how this happened. My only guess is that it was stores in an attic without temperature or humidity control.

I must admit a disconnect when I hear of folks removing the reed from their sweatband for comfort, as I have never considered it. I have never had an uncomfortable hat which was caused by the reed and no desire to second-guess the proper construction of the hat by the maker. Reeded sweats were, as I see it, introduced to allow for a bit more structure in the hat (allowing it to keep it's shape) and (I presume) a better production design that required less effort/labor to attach to the hat.

As to your hat which has shrunk, going from a 7 1/8 to 6 7/8 should result in warping of the leather sweatband, as having leather shrink to that degree unmolested would be highly unusual. Could it have had a new sweatband installed? And what do you mean by "shrink the flange?"
 

Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
Sometimes liners fade in naptha, but usually they come out fine. It’s best to take them out, but if they’re stitched in I hate removing them.


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Also, JJ, the brown perspiration stains that make a liner look bad seem impervious to the naptha bath. I did just have good results getting a very unpleasant smell out of a vintage hat that way. Naptha is also known as white gas, or camping fuel. Its the clear gasoline product that burns very clean and is used in Coleman laterns and stoves. 100 years ago if people talked sbout gasoline, this is what they meant.
Hatters used to take hats in from customers, stack them based on color, then soak them overnight in naptha. In the morning they dried in the sun, then were brushed.
It was basically an early l)££orm of drycleaning, because "wet" water isn't used.

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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
I have a 50's Stetson Fifteen in much the same shape. The tag says 7 but I know it is down one size and possibly two. The sweat is warped as if the 2 inch band or the felt has shrunk arond it. The felt and band look perfectly fine making me wonder how this happened. My only guess is that it was stores in an attic without temperature or humidity control.
My sweat isn't warped. There's the rub. Heat and humidity changes will shrink felt and leather over time. Shrinking them together is unlikely.

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Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
I must admit a disconnect when I hear of folks removing the reed from their sweatband for comfort, as I have never considered it. I have never had an uncomfortable hat which was caused by the reed and no desire to second-guess the proper construction of the hat by the maker. Reeded sweats were, as I see it, introduced to allow for a bit more structure in the hat (allowing it to keep it's shape) and (I presume) a better production design that required less effort/labor to attach to the hat.

As to your hat which has shrunk, going from a 7 1/8 to 6 7/8 should result in warping of the leather sweatband, as having leather shrink to that degree unmolested would be highly unusual. Could it have had a new sweatband installed? And what do you mean by "shrink the flange?"
Was this a repost? I thought I responded to it before, but I don't see my response. Are the bartenders moving me around again?
 

Hat and Rehat

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,444
Location
Denver
Someone asked if anyone could help them identify a coat of arms crest logo in a hat they own. I was out of town, so couldn't check my own hats, but thought I might have it in a hat of mine. I don't. the crest they were looking for had a shield flanked by two standing lions. My own hat has a shield flanked by standing griffins.
Quite a few hatmakers seem to have used the coat of arms form of branding. Has anyone compiled a database of the companies and their crests?
 

Stephily

New in Town
Messages
5
Hi! I am wanting to sell these hats but I am not quite sure on the price, can someone help me out! Thanks
b3064bb606925236822a852990a67f85.jpg
36e5de803b472a6b31bbd0a7a3d52920.jpg
2867797568dd690e7d306bfb18a1feac.jpg
590bb693defcc6133e66a97021f66f7f.jpg



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Messages
19,001
Location
Central California
Hi! I am wanting to sell these hats but I am not quite sure on the price, can someone help me out! Thanks
b3064bb606925236822a852990a67f85.jpg
36e5de803b472a6b31bbd0a7a3d52920.jpg
2867797568dd690e7d306bfb18a1feac.jpg
590bb693defcc6133e66a97021f66f7f.jpg



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Some additional photos would really help. At a minimum, we need the size (the value of hats fluctuates widely based on size), the width of the brims, and more photos of the exteriors, the leather sweatbands (including markings), and any labels on the hat (often located behind the leather sweatbands).


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