Alexander Leathers Simmons and Aero Aeromarine Discussion

[schitzo]

Aero and AL are now both doing a jacket that's kinda similar. I wonder, aside from the AL having just one button at the bottom as opposed to two, can any of you with a better eye for detail than me discern any more differences? Unfortunately there aren't back pics for the AL up yet, I guess those must be on their way..

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/product-detail.php?id=1465

http://www.alexanderleathers.com/vintageclassics/simmons-bilt.html

 

[Capesofwrath]

Hm. They were quick off the mark there.

 

[majormajor]

Here's a quick fit pic of my Aeromarine:

Having seen the original jacket up at Galashiels, it looks like AlexCo have got just about everything wrong. The bottom seam is the wrong shape. The buttons are wrong. And the collar is just a joke. Just shaving a bit off your regular collar does NOT turn it into a shawl collar.

Ken told me that Aero spent alot of time getting that collar just right. Here's what they came up with (Ken made this one):

Looking at the AlexCo "attempt", the phrase "mall jacket" comes to mind:eeek:

 

[Sloan1874]

Actually, the collars are completely different - the tricky bit, I'm told. AL's is basically just an A-1 with a scalloped Peter Pan collar which buttons across at the neck, while Aero's is a proper shawl collar with a utterly different look. When you flip the AM's collar up, it really encloses the neck area completely, which would kind of explain this type of jackets use as an early civvy flight jacket.

edit: of course, this might not matter to you and it's relatievly cheaper, but it does appear to be a bit of a rush job, so I'd be interested to see how it actually fits. If I'd been them, I'd have given it a bit longer and worked out how to do it properly. Just my opinion.

 

[cordwangler]

Hm. They were quick off the mark there.

Well, a lot quicker than Aero - Himel have been developing their version for some years now. ;-)

Yes, the Peter Pan collar is an innovation too far on this pattern.

 

[Sloan1874]

Jerky refers to a rougher more grainy and characterful hide - I think it also tends to be a little lighter, on account of the area of the animal's body it comes from. Some people like it for the added texture and character it has, as well as the added authenticity in relation to A-2 jackets - governments wanting to make best use of whatever leather they had during war time would not be too concerned about a perfect finish.

 

[majormajor]

So from just those pics alone Sloan and MM's considered POV is that the AL version is an improper 'mall' jacket with a crappy collar best suited to Peter Pan!!

What a turn up for the books! lol

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, Schitz. Maybe you are looking at a smartphone, rather than a decent monitor - I don't know. But when you get the chance, have a proper look:

Here are the collars. The Aero on the right ,has a shawl collar (like the original). The AlexCo has a Peter Pan collar - something I have rarely seen on a leather jacket, or many men's jackets at all, come to that.

And here are the bottoms of the jackets. The Aero, like the original, has a hem panel which gets deeper towards the middle, to accomodate the two buttons. The AlexCo has neither the deepening panel NOR the two buttons....

BTW, my idea of a "mall jacket" is something cheap, for folks who aren't too bothered about the details........So there you go

 

[schitzo]

"Peter Pan collar isn't a description that they just made up. It's a common name for that collar. Also seen on 60s womenswear.[huh]
I agree that the Aero Collar looks better and is more of a "real shawl collar".

Yes that's right, but apparently, according to MM's unique brand of objectivity 'Peter Pan sums it up' - that's the part I was referring to.


No matter, this week I visited both factories.

To be honest, this isn't a design I was at all interested in and so at aero I didn't even look at it. Then at AL the leather this one is made in caught my eye, so I tried it on. It's Norwegian horse, which is black and shiny; I like it. Personally, authenticity is not a concern of mine, though I know it's important for others. My only concern is does it look good or not. I tried that one on - it's a size 42 I'm a 38 - and it wasn't a bad fit. Shoulders were good, length missing an inch (possibly) and the chest slightly bigger than necessary. It didn't look at all bad. My impression of it was that it felt supremely comfortable without looking too big and that it looked like a smarter more dressy type of jacket; evening wear if you will.

As I say, that's just my amateur overall initial impression. The historical details I will concede have inevitably eluded me, for the simple fact that I don't care about those

 

[majormajor]

"Peter Pan collar isn't a description that they just made up. It's a common name for that collar. Also seen on 60s womenswear.[huh]
I agree that the Aero Collar looks better and is more of a "real shawl collar".

Yes that's right, but apparently, according to MM's unique brand of objectivity 'Peter Pan sums it up' - that's the part I was referring to.


No matter, this week I visited both factories.

To be honest, this isn't a design I was at all interested in and so at aero I didn't even look at it. Then at AL the leather this one is made in caught my eye, so I tried it on. It's Norwegian horse, which is black and shiny; I like it. Personally, authenticity is not a concern of mine, though I know it's important for others. My only concern is does it look good or not. I tried that one on - it's a size 42 I'm a 38 - and it wasn't a bad fit. Shoulders were good, length missing an inch (possibly) and the chest slightly bigger than necessary. It didn't look at all bad. My impression of it was that it felt supremely comfortable without looking too big and that it looked like a smarter more dressy type of jacket; evening wear if you will.

As I say, that's just my amateur overall initial impression. The historical details I will concede have inevitably eluded me, for the simple fact that I don't care about those

Hi Schitz.

I never inferred that "Peter Pan" was a made up name. As you say, it is a common feature on women's clothes. And I think it is an apt description for this jacket, which is just SO wrong in every possible way (IMHO).

If you like wearing stuff like that, that's cool.

To me, it's what I would expect to find on a market stall, next to the fake Levi's. Each to his own

 

[Rudie]

I don't understand why you infer that the AL jacket is a hasty Aeromarine knock-off. They are completely different beasts. It's like comparing the Aeromarine to an A-2. Both have small patch pockets with flaps.

 

[Sloan1874]

Absolutely right on the Himmel thing, the price was always on the high side though. The thing about the Heron, as far as I was concerned, was the shawl collar and the way it looks - so to be honest, I wouldn't say there's really much in common with the Aero and the AL - though, given the timing, it wouldn't surprise me if that was AL's intention. In the end, it's not about historical accuracy, it's about the overall look.

 

[Boyo]

Major.. What does the collar of the AM look like with the upper most button done up? That seems to me to be what is throwing off the look of the Alexander, I would like to see how the Peter Pan collar will lay with the top button opened.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Keep it clean, gents.

 

[cordwangler]

"The thing about the Heron, as far as I was concerned, was the shawl collar and the way it looks"

My point exactly. Loads in common with the Aero jacket! Not so much with the hurried AL effort, which doesn't appeal to me at all.

Of course, we are talking about the revisioning of old designs. I've no beef with this. It's a good thing. I'm all for it.

 

[Rudie]

Do you really think Will and the rest of the AL staff with their decades in jacket manufacturing do not know the difference between a shawl collar and a Peter Pan collar?

 

[majormajor]

Major.. What does the collar of the AM look like with the upper most button done up? That seems to me to be what is throwing off the look of the Alexander, I would like to see how the Peter Pan collar will lay with the top button opened.

Hi Boyo

For me, a Shawl collar is a style which you would rarely do up, except when you maybe turn the collar up. It is a style that is designed to be worn down with the top button undone - in the same way that a suit jacket lapel has a buttonhole, but it is not designed to be done up.

A Peter Pan collar, on the other hand, is a completely different beast. I certainly have never seen a Peter Pan collar on a man's jacket. If you google it, you will get a million images like this:

Call me old fashioned, but that is not a look I am gonna embrace:eeek:

 

[majormajor]

Do you really think Will and the rest of the AL staff with their decades in jacket manufacturing do not know the difference between a shawl collar and a Peter Pan collar?

Do you want my honest opinion?

NO, I don't!!

What they DO know, however, it that one is easy - the other isn't.......

 

[schitzo]

Hi Schitz.

I never inferred that "Peter Pan" was a made up name. As you say, it is a common feature on women's clothes. And I think it is an apt description for this jacket, which is just SO wrong in every possible way (IMHO).

If you like wearing stuff like that, that's cool.

To me, it's what I would expect to find on a market stall, next to the fake Levi's. Each to his own

If aero and AL took the same original vintage jacket and set out to produce a stitch for stitch replica and the original was like aero's then yes, this collar and that hem on the AL would be mistakes. But was that Al's intention?

We don't know do we.

If they've simply made their own version of a jacket in this style then those features you've highlighted - which I admit I hadn't noticed until you pointed them out - are differences, not errors.

Again, for me it boils down to do I think it looks good or not. My answer is yes, I could happily wear that AL version. And if men who were old enough to recall jackets made in a similar style but with different collars and hems looked at me like I was some sort of knob for doing so I could live with that!

Of course, now that the AL version has drawn my attention to this style, I might look again at the aero, and assess whether I feel those 'original' features are preferable. At this juncture, having not handled the Aeromarine I'm not in a position to confidently prefer one or the other am I?

However, I am in a position to confirm that you won't be seeing one of those on a market stall! That said, thanks for your input MM, your impartial observations are always appreciated!

 

[Rudie]

I think she looks cute and very much embraceable.

 

[Sloan1874]

Let's put it this way: I know the difference between the two, and if you were to hand me the leather and tools to have a go making it I give it my damndest, but I don't think you'd want to wear it.