Aero Original and Repro Aero Scotland

[JRaptor]

greyhound, yer killin me man, if my wife don't kill me first....lol, Great looking jacket and it has AERO written all over it.


fedoralover:
I don't have any pic's of the ELC 18775-P as the one I had was about five years ago,and now I find myself in a hell bent for leather search to find another. There is however a thread next door that has turned into an AERO thread Kinda....

My problem is that Almost isn't good enough and when it comes to details I will gladly spend a couple of hundred dollars more to get that authenticity!

See it here:
http://cornellsurgery.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5975&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

[HAMMER]

Aged Repro

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Well used repro or copy, any guesses?

 

[JRaptor]

Well used repro or copy, any guesses?

Um, my guess is that it's a well used Avirex!

 

[greyhound68]

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Well used repro or copy, any guesses?

It is a repro but I can't tell who made it.

 

[Fletch]

First of all Avirex shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same thread as ELC, RMNz, or Aero!

Absolutely not. Heaven forbid anyone be tempted to make point-by-point comparisons.

The day that any n00b can tell what makes a jacket authentic just by reading a message board and looking at pictures is the day that collectors' hard earned knowledge is given away for nothing. Without it, they no longer are connaisseurs, just consumers.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

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Well used repro or copy, any guesses?

Inaccurate leather hanger and label. Too small copy of style 413 BS patch to look authentic(+ bomb should be sewn pointed down at angle). Repro for sure....Cockpit??? But for most wearers,none of this would matter at all!
HD

 

[Fletch]

That's a start...:eusa_clap

 

[HAMMER]

Mystery Jacket

The label(s) are missing, but I think its an old 80's Avirex too. The goat skin is about the heaviest I've seen or handled. Forgot where I picked it up, probably Goodwill.

 

[HAMMER]

Back on Track

Sorry if this got off track. Here's the original Talon double-marked zipper on the Aero Leather, Beacon NY. Comparing aspects of the original Aero to various repros of it was the reason for this thread. Does anyone know how the double-marked zipper relates in time to the triple-marked one? How about a close-up of an original triple-marked talon?

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[JRaptor]

Hey HAMMER,

In case you are not aware, here is a link to a great site that will tell you almost everything you need to know about A-2's, including a complete section on the hardware and a photo of the triple marked Talon.

http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/index.shtml

 

[Fletch]

That's a great site, but there's one thing it does not do: it doesn't have any concise illustrated guide as to how to spot an "inauthentic," "modern" or "mall jacket" repro. That's a major flaw.

Also, given the endless detail about hardware and construction, the section called "Sizing and Fit" seems to be deliberately terse:

Unlike the loose-fitting trend of more recent clothing, the original A-2 was a rather trim jacket in both the torso and sleeves. It is also the case that, for instance, a wartime A-2 size 42 may be closer to a modern day size 40 and such differences may be even greater. An important aspect of how an A-2 looks is how it hugs its wearer. Loose and baggy A-2 replicas just do not make muster.

This is all he says about sizing and fit.

 

[HAMMER]

Zipper Dating

I'd read this a couple years ago I think, and he talks about the triple-marked coming first, then double-marked and so on, but its vague, no years mentioned. Figured someone here would have contract specs and dates relating to Talon's production in the 30's and 40's. I could take a complete guess and say double-marked is 1941 and or 1942, maybe triple-marked is late thirties thru 1941? I have no idea, and am just asking.

 

[greyhound68]

That's a great site, but there's one thing it does not do: it doesn't have any concise illustrated guide as to how to spot an "inauthentic," "modern" or "mall jacket" repro. That's a major flaw.

Also, given the endless detail about hardware and construction, the section called "Sizing and Fit" seems to be deliberately terse:



This is all he says about sizing and fit.

He does have an entire part of the site devoted to size measurements for reproductions which is very useful. There are also some good impressions of some of the reproduction jackets which can lead one to determine what is proper and what is not.

There is a flight jacket CD by John Chapman which really hits this point home. He puts it on ebay every now and then. It is an excellent source for both original and reproduction jackets.

On originals Acme depot's description is correct to a point. Most WW2 A2s have size which is 3-5 inches in circumference over the stated size. Therefore, a size 42 would be 45-48 inches in circumference. A modern fit like, flight suits for example, is around eight inches over the stated size or 50 inches for a 42. Thus the trimmer fit on original A2s. To make matters worse some makers (and this is really true of Roughwear) are particularly trim. My 44 RW is around 47 in circumference while my Doniger 44 is over 48. My 46 Monarch matches the same size dimensions as my 44 Doniger. Sizing for originals is all over the place but Monarchs, Perrys, and Roughwears appear to be really on the trimmer and smaller size for their stated size while Donigers, Broncos, and Speiwak appear larger. Just an observation after handling a lot of these original jackets. However, one can always be surprised as the 40 Cable which fit me (I think this one may have been mismarked originally as I can never take a 40 in any original jacket).

 

[greyhound68]

Sorry if this got off track. Here's the original Talon double-marked zipper on the Aero Leather, Beacon NY. Comparing aspects of the original Aero to various repros of it was the reason for this thread. Does anyone know how the double-marked zipper relates in time to the triple-marked one? How about a close-up of an original triple-marked talon?

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First, I think your picture is of a triple mark talon. Does it say talon underneath? If it does it is triple marked.

You do ask a really good question about dating and wished I had an answer for you. Most of the triple marked talons with the art deco box (in the box was the word talon) were pre war models. However, I have seen them on wartime contracts as well. The triple marked talon puller is seen on wartime models. I have them on my wartime Donigers. My triple marked with art deco box is both on my pre-war Roughwear and my wartime Monarch. So exact dating is really hard unless one had the original contract dates which as far as I know we don't. I think that jacket makers used whatever zippers they could get from both talon, crown, conmar, and kwik. Here is a shot sorry it is blurry still getting use to this new camera of the triple mark talon with art deco box on my Monarch.

 

[HAMMER]

Thank you

That's a beautiful zipper and jacket. On my talon it says talon on the back and front of the pull, and as you see across the zipper head. Where it does not say talon or is worn off, is in that diagonal line through the art deco box. My Aero anniversary repro has Talon again there, so four times the word talon is repeated, actually 5 because the back and the front of box are marked talon as well.

Do the Monarch's consistently run heavier, like toward the leather weight of an Aero or Lost Worlds repro? Or is it all over the place?

Zippers, to me are the most fascinating part of the jackets. I buy new talon zippers to use on jackets I get with no zippers at all, but they are sadly of lower quality than the old talons of course. If anyone know where to buy the ones with "made in usa" on the back like the originals, I'd really like to know. I guess they would have to be unused originals? Or am I wrong?

 

[HAMMER]

Original vs. Repro Sizing

For what its worth my Aero repro is marked 48 and is exactly 48, 24 inches armpit to armpit.

My original is a 44 and measures precisely the same; 24 inches armpit to armpit, making it a true 48, if 'true' means actual length in inches of leather panels sewn together.

I handle (as a hobby) primarily vintage non-military jackets from the 30's 40's 50's and find most run true to size with older ones cut trimmer back through the late 30's but then you go to early 30' or pre-depression era and the wider shoulders are popular, check this out in ads too for civilian jackets. Of course the military jackets are cut for a very in-shape person, hugging the shoulder and de-accentuating them, giving a lean, trim look.

 

[greyhound68]

I order NOS WW2 talons from MASH in Japan. Here is there website on the talon zip page.
http://www.mash-japan.co.jp/fastener-repairparts/fastener-repairparts-set.html

If you send an email to them Yoshi will answer in english. They are very good zippers (used them on three of my jackets) and MASH has excellent service.

On the heavy part of the horsehide on the Monarch I can't say because it is the first one I have handled ever. It does match the heft of a LW. I have handled Bronco, Roughwear, 18246-P no name contract, a Star Sportswear, Cable, and Aero all in HH. This one has the most heft of them all IMO.

The zipper you discussed w/o the talon on the box is probably a wartime issue. I think all of the box talons were pre war made. But again I don't know of any records of contracts like A2s so it is tough to say for certain.

 

[Fletch]

He does have an entire part of the site devoted to size measurements for reproductions which is very useful. There are also some good impressions of some of the reproduction jackets which can lead one to determine what is proper and what is not.[...]
On originals Acme depot's description is correct to a point. Most WW2 A2s have size which is 3-5 inches in circumference over the stated size. Therefore, a size 42 would be 45-48 inches in circumference. A modern fit like, flight suits for example, is around eight inches over the stated size or 50 inches for a 42. Thus the trimmer fit on original A2s.

All good info. Thanks.

My Cockpit horse has 7" extra chest room (51" at size 44), putting it in the modern fit category, but I noticed Flight Suits makes a similarly proportioned model (Historical Horsehide) which costs about half again as much as mine did.

 

[HAMMER]

Thanks

Great info on the zippers, much appreciated. I will order some.

 

[HAMMER]

Yen Conversion

I just plugged that in to the Yahoo converter, 5,000 yen equals 43 U.S. dollars, can that be right? If so, then these are original zippers, not current reproductions?? Price is worth it then.