Aero Leather Clothing trial update

[pawineguy]

Well, maybe KC is not the saint you all make him look like and not everybody loves him, and some of the workers for Aero didn't like the idea of the Calders coming back and had no idea of any mischief and embeezlement on the side of WL? Nobody who left back then joined a "convicted thief" as back then he wasn't one. You blame others to be not as clever as you are now in hindsight, which, from my point of view isn't even unfair, it's nonsense.

It's so hard to say. Were they afraid of KC coming back because WL had poisoned them with lies about him? Was KC a demanding boss that they didn't like? Remember also that KC re-staffed his company with people who had left Aero because they couldn't work with WL. As Fanch notes, a mess all around.

 

[Sloan1874]

Sloan, who was the third of the Moffat trio?

Minto, Kelly, Johnston.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I really don't see AL 'going bust'..unless there is actually some legal action taken against them so damaging that they can't recover from it. Most customers of repro jacket manufactures do not belong to a forum like this that is interested enough with the background and trial to be so concerned about it. Then you have those like the IH forum (and others) who could really care less that there were and are corrupt entities at work. There would need to be motivation (pressure) that not only was the most obvious info smuggled out of Aero directly for AL use....but also a web of willing contacts of support that were only gained by certain learned knowledge suitable for sabotage.
HD

 

[wdw]

Next questions, Sloan:

Was the £194k broken down into jackets, jeans, eBay etc? How much of each?

And I think you said the whole storse thing was never fully quantified or included in the total? Even though it was several hundred jackets in one year alone? Was the belief that WL benefitted from the windfall income?

Finally, although £194k was the figure in the criminal case, do you have any idea of the value of the maybe impending civil trial? Presumably that would be significantly higher to account for storse rebuilds etc.

 

[Sloan1874]

Well, maybe KC is not the saint you all make him look like and not everybody loves him, and some of the workers for Aero didn't like the idea of the Calders coming back and had no idea of any mischief and embeezlement on the side of WL? Nobody who left back then joined a "convicted thief" as back then he wasn't one. You blame others to be not as clever as you are now in hindsight, which, from my point of view isn't even unfair, it's nonsense.

I haven't said that KC is a saint (who is?) - read the narrative thread - but as I said, to get up a petition against the person who was paying their wages and who was in the building twice a year is peculiar. They hardly had an opportunity to form a opinion of him. Is it perhaps the case that they formed their opinion based on what Will told them? Also, it was Will and not Ken who robbed the shareholders of the true value of the dividend.

 

[Superfluous]

I think the latter part of what Sloan just said emphasizes what could come back to haunt AL above all else. What is the coincidence between the patterns copied over a six-month period described by JL and the emergence of "close resemblance" when AL first introduced their new line of jackets slightly over two years ago?

The time line is troubling. Per Sloan's trial narrative:

April 2011: WL tasks an Aero employee (Heriot Watt) with creating duplicates of all jacket patterns -- a task which takes 6+ months to complete.

2012: WL and SA purportedly have a "chance meeting" and decide to form AL.

April / June 2012: WL advises KC that SA wants to buy Aero -- KC rejects SA's lowball offer.

September 24, 2012: KC discovers WL's theft and fires WL.

October 9, 2012: Alexander Leather is formed ( http://companycheck.co.uk/company/S...G-COMPANY-LTD/group-structure#group-structure ).

October - November 2012: After a meeting with AL director Paul Kenny, several Aero employees resign from Aero and are hired by AL.

November - December 2012: In response to KC's efforts to protect Aero's intellectual property rights, WL acknowledges that he has Aero's jacket patterns at his house and returns them to Aero.

January 24, 2013: AL introduces the "Detroit," "Dirtrider," "Nebraska" and "Long Rider" jackets ( https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderLeatherCo ).

January 29, 2013: AL introduces the "Bike," "Spiegel," "Roadster" and "Drifter" jackets ( https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderLeatherCo ).

Several things about this timeline stand out to me, including:

A. According to its "About Us" statement, AL was formed after a 2012 "chance meeting" between SA and WL. When exactly did this "chance meeting" take place? Before or after WL attempted to broker SA's purchase of Aero? Before or after WL was terminated from Aero? Did SA and WL decide to form AL while WL was still employed as Aero's managing director?

B. Why didn't WL return Aero's patterns to Aero/KC immediately upon his September 24, 2012 termination? Why did WL retain Aero's patterns until after AL was formed, and after KC endeavored to protect his intellectual property rights? What did WL do with the patterns during the interim?

C. AL introduced eight different jacket designs during January 2013, just a couple of months after the company was formed. How exactly did AL manage to design, and create patterns for, eight different jackets within such a short period of time (while concurrently establishing a manufacturing facility and company infrastructure)?

I feel for the 10 or so other staff members that followed WL to AL.

Being the stand-up guy that he is, I suspect that KC might rehire certain of his former employees -- the non-culpable ones who were duped by WL.

 

[AdeeC]

Petitions are not spontaneous things. There has to be an instigator and an agenda behind them. I have organised many over the years. The issues are usually not on peoples minds until shoved under their noses. A persuasive boss and his offsiders would have no trouble getting signatures. And easier still when there is familiarity between petitioner and signer. Workers would feel pressured to sign because thats what the boss wants. In the trail of evidence it appears WL was a good manipulator to get things done his way and not the companies way. And it was in his interest to keep KC and Co out of the factory at all costs.

 

[Sloan1874]

Next questions, Sloan:

Was the £194k broken down into jackets, jeans, eBay etc? How much of each?

And I think you said the whole storse thing was never fully quantified or included in the total? Even though it was several hundred jackets in one year alone? Was the belief that WL benefitted from the windfall income?

Finally, although £194k was the figure in the criminal case, do you have any idea of the value of the maybe impending civil trial? Presumably that would be significantly higher to account for storse rebuilds etc.

The seizure was roughly £144,121 and eBay £52,000, I can't tell you the break down of jackets etc, as the value of the jeans and jackets varied.
I can't answer on the windfall question. Whether it was a way of offsetting the drop in profits elsewhere, there was no evidence led on this. On any civil trial, I can't say what sort value it would have.

 

[Big J]

So, we're waiting for 'the beak' to decide how much 'porridge' is getting served now, right?*

*I've been watching The Long Good Friday and some other 70's UK gangster films.

 

[Edward]

I've actually worn that exact jacket. Just for a few minutes. I used to work for NC.

Cool! That's got to be a story..... (Did he ever show you cool Elvis stuff? He's a big fan, I gather....).

From a company puffing their chest up and talking about legal action I would have thought the statement regarding the email might equate to slander?

The appropriate head of defamation for a statment made in writing, including on a website, would be libel, not slander. The requirements in English law (Sloan will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Scottish jurisdiction is identical) are that the statement is published, the person about whom it is alleged to be is identifiable, and its natural and ordinary meaning is one which would make right-thinking members of society in general think less of the subject to an extent which can be demonstrated to have at least the potential to cause "serious damage" to their reputation. Truth is a complete defence, however the onus is on the defendant to prove the truth or substantial truth of the claim. As defamation is a matter of strict liability, the intention of the person making the statement is irrelevant; even if they wholly believed it to be true. It's not an area of law in which to tread carelessly.

So, we're waiting for 'the beak' to decide how much 'porridge' is getting served now, right?*

*I've been watching The Long Good Friday and some other 70's UK gangster films.

Not far off.

Technically, "doing porridge" refers to serving time in prison; while the judge clearly indicated when the verdict was given that the option of a custodial sentence is open, we don't yet know for certain whether it will be ordered. Of course, if the judge determines a custodial sentence to be appropriate in the circumstances of this case, given a guilty verdict following a trial and the value of stock stolen, if memory serves the sentence under Scots law could be up to three years, subject to parole.

 

[Edward]

Chrome tanning is one process. CXL undergoes both a vegetable and chrome tan=combination tanned, with some extra finishing steps that is unique to Horween I think. My understanding is that that extra vegetable tanning stage in the CXL is what allows the leather to age so nicely and contributes to its pleasing natural look, rather than just being flat colored. It's the middle visual result. On the left you have a completely vegetable tanned jacket that looks very natural and organic (think Italian horsehide) and on the right you have an 80s Air Force A-2 (very flat/one color-why a FQHH jacket looks a tad bit more processed than say a Vicenza). It is also stuffed with these oils and waxes, (pull up leather), so when the jacket gets worn certain areas will become discolored. I think the CXL was an attempt to bring in the benefits of both chrome (robustness) and vegetable (aesthetics) tanning together. That's how I read it anyhow.

There are different finishing steps in other leathers that make a difference in appearance as well. You can have a completely chrome tanned jacket with no pigment added, which will still bring out the leather's natural variances because there's no pigment covering the leather. So it might not always be easy to tell the difference between chrome/veg. If my analysis is dead wrong correct me!

Thanks, I think that's clearer now! Reminds me of the process Fender developed a few years ago for finishing guitars. A lot of folks still prefer the vintage spec nitrocellulose lacquer, which ages very differently than modern polyurethane. There are some guitars they spray with undercoats of poly, for the long-term protection of the finish from wear, and then topcoat with nitro, for the look/feel. Sounds like the Chromexel in a sesne is this sort of compromise approach. Whatever the chemistry of it, it certainly looks damn cool and ages well, so.

 

[Big J]

Thanks for the explanation Edward. I need to study this 'Rumpole of the Bailey' I've been hearing so much about.

 

[Big J]

I've actually worn that exact jacket. Just for a few minutes. I used to work for NC.

Cool!
But did he know you wore it?

 

[Sloan1874]

LGF is one of my favourite gangster films. I also recommend the original Get Carter, starring Michael Caine.

 

[Big J]

LGF is one of my favourite gangster films. I also recommend the original Get Carter, starring Michael Caine.

Sloan, I've seen it, I remember being shocked by just how bad Micheal Caine is in that. And I've been on the look out for a 'J' signet ring ever since!

British gangster films have got so much style; 'villains' with 'shooters', 'Jags' and 'birds in fur coats'. I love it.

 

[tropicalbob]

An American friend in Dublin once remarked while we were watching the LGF that British gangsters always remind you of your father. Also, I was rereading Treasure Island recently and couldn't got over how different Long John Silver is from the way he's been portrayed in films. Much more interesting. I kept seeing Michael Caine in the role.

 

[handymike]

Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast. Now that guy is a total Bada**.

 

[Bunyip]

Get onto Tom Hardy in " The Take" a red hot mini series. Great British crime family, really enjoyable.

 

[Sloan1874]

Sloan, I've seen it, I remember being shocked by just how bad Micheal Caine is in that. And I've been on the look out for a 'J' signet ring ever since!

British gangster films have got so much style; 'villains' with 'shooters', 'Jags' and 'birds in fur coats'. I love it.

[video=youtube;jIXYM5C9YCQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIXYM5C9YCQ[/video]

 

[Two Types]

So, we're waiting for 'the beak' to decide how much 'porridge' is getting served now, right?*

*I've been watching The Long Good Friday and some other 70's UK gangster films.

If you want a good 1970s British gangster film, try 'Villain' starring Richard Burton. It shows the London of the 1970s as a complete ****hole.