Advertising at its finest... :-(

[LizzieMaine]

I think given the uproar (probably started by a reader) we can feel safe in knowing that it's far from likely that hipsters in general (or hipster readers of this magazine in particular) are ok with it. It's likely a small segment of stupid people who came up with it.

The protest seems to have started with the "Jezebel" blog, a young-women's site which has frequently attacked Vice magazine and hipster culture in general for its "ironic" use of crass sexism, racism and classism. Vice, in particular, seems to have a long history of such abuses -- not surprising, given the views and attitudes of its founder, a forty-two year old Canadian who never grew out of the arrogant worldview of a pampered and overindulged upper-middle-class teenage boy.

 

[DamianM]

Art isn't pretty daisies and butterfly's, Truly I am strongly against any form of censorship when in comes to the arts.
Suicide can be depicted in art, it is a part of the world we live in and should not be hidden away.

But I don't agree it being used as a fashion spread, a selling point.

 

[DamianM]

After i read sheeplady's comment i wondered if Vice would try selling trendy and disgustingly overpriced Workwear with a fat, old, Hemingway-like model with a shotgun in his mouth?
It'll never happen, one mustn't upset the ironic and moneyed bearded boys club..

It would be a smarter advertisement if the shotgun was just hanging up whilst he just sat in a chair.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Art isn't pretty daisies and butterfly's, Truly I am strongly against any form of censorship when in comes to the arts.
Suicide can be depicted in art, it is a part of the world we live in and should not be hidden away.

But I don't agree it being used as a fashion spread, a selling point.

Nobody's calling for censorship here. Censorship by the authorities is not the same thing as public censure. We need more of the latter. People need to be willing to stand up and say NO MORE. Unless they think, oh, an Emmett Till fashion spread would be "hip and edgy."

 

[DamianM]

that case is appalling to begin with, any conversation without serious tone is out of question

I disagreed with it be used to market clothing.
But don't disagree with suicide being depicted in art.
Which makes me wonder, that if these were not photographs would it change anything?

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I'll bet many of the target audience don't even know who these authors were. It's just oh so "kewl" to them.

 

[DamianM]

After reading up on what the issue is truly about. It is about celebrating woman artist.
The "fashion spread" (more like editorial) are not selling anything.
Just depiction of the choices these women made.
It is part of the story of there lives and you cant sugar coat that.
Has anyone seen Francesca woodman's work and know her story?

For sake of conversation here we have an article on praising the spread.
Good points made
http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-literati/2013/06/why-the-vice-last-words-fashion-spread-is-great/

 

[sheeplady]

The protest seems to have started with the "Jezebel" blog, a young-women's site which has frequently attacked Vice magazine and hipster culture in general for its "ironic" use of crass sexism, racism and classism. Vice, in particular, seems to have a long history of such abuses -- not surprising, given the views and attitudes of its founder, a forty-two year old Canadian who never grew out of the arrogant worldview of a pampered and overindulged upper-middle-class teenage boy.

I'm just a little bit hesitant to say that hipsters are the ones that promote these things. It's obviously not only the hipsters who do this kind of stuff, by far. And I highly doubt that if you gathered a bunch of hipsters together, they'd all agree this is good or just.

 

[sheeplady]

After reading up on what the issue is truly about. It is about celebrating woman artist.
The "fashion spread" (more like editorial) are not selling anything.
Just depiction of the choices these women made.
It is part of the story of there lives and you cant sugar coat that.
Has anyone seen Francesca woodman's work and know her story?

For sake of conversation here we have an article on praising the spread.
Good points made
http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-literati/2013/06/why-the-vice-last-words-fashion-spread-is-great/

Those images are disturbing. And I have a high tolerance for being disturbed.

If they want to edgy and actually do something "good" then they should do a spread on the women who have battery acid thrown in their faces in some countries in the middle east and in Afghanistan for things like rejecting marriage proposals, failing to engage in pre-marital sexual activities, or marrying another man. I've yet to meet one person in the U.S. who knows how widespread this is. But I'd fear there's some in this country who would think that's a good idea and try it on their wives, girlfriends, etc.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've yet to meet one person in the U.S. who knows how widespread this is.

You're talking to one now.

The problem with "tolerance" of things we find abhorrent is that we become desensitized to how horrible they actually are. People end up trying to rationalize them away or just ignore them entirely rather than having the courage to just stand up and say NO. THIS IS WRONG. Frankly, the mental health of one troubled young woman is more important to me than a million whining "artists".

A society with no boundaries is no longer entitled to call itself a society.

 

[DamianM]

Like the article says. this is as much part of there lives as there writing.
If the spread did anything is succeed in making people talk. They were not selling anything but showing you a reenactment photograph of a little slice of these artist lives. It does not apply to everyone else but these women artist.
That is what art is about after all. making us question.

If society chooses to sugarcoat the truth, refuse, or simply turn a blind eye to its problems. then society itself becomes the source of the problem

Its not appalling when in comparison lots of people have an image of Christ on a cross. the most famous and acceptable depiction of a suicide.

 

[sheeplady]

Like the article says. this is as much part of there lives as there writing.
If the spread did anything is succeed in making people talk. They were not selling anything but showing you a reenactment photograph of a little slice of these artist lives. It does not apply to everyone else but these women artist.
That is what art is about after all. making us question.

If society chooses to sugarcoat the truth, refuse, or simply turn a blind eye to its problems. then society itself becomes the source of the problem

Its not appalling when in comparison lots of people have an image of Christ on a cross. the most famous and acceptable depiction of a suicide.

*Don't read this if you are triggered by suicidal imagery.*

Why did the choose only women authors then? And did they choose any women authors who committed more "violent" "male-like" forms of suicide, like with a gun to the mouth or jumping off a bridge?

The plain fact is that plenty of women choose to commit suicide in ways that are not as quick as men. They theorize that women are more likely trying to call for help when they attempt these different means of suicide. That's the sad sad part in some of these photos. A long time ago I read an expose by a woman who was depressed and considered suicide. But when she was in the military, she had had to clean up someone's brains from a closet who shot themselves in the head, and she never wanted someone to do that for her. Somebody had to find these individuals and somebody had to clean up this mess.

I have no idea what to make of your last two sentences. I'm not a Christian, but I can see how that could easily be highly highly offensive to someone who is. Christ didn't commit suicide because he was depressed like these ladies. It wasn't a call for help. It was God's chosen path for him and he didn't run away from certain death because he knew it. Saying that a woman committing suicide is God's path for them is really offensive- these people had families, work, fans, etc. who saw only pain from their deaths. There is no great scripture written because these individuals committed suicide. And I am sure that if their deaths gave them notoriety, their friends and families would rather have them be alive for a few more years than famous.

ETA: There is nothing glamorous about suicide. This is making light of suicide by trying to make it glamorous.

 

[LizzieMaine]

ETA: There is nothing glamorous about suicide. This is making light of suicide by trying to make it glamorous.

What's more, we need, as a culture, as a society, to stop romanticising suicide, whether it's an immediate death by rope or gun or razor or pills, or the slow death of drug abuse. Ohhhhh, what a tragic figure she was, oh, she gave her life for her art.

No she didn't. She gave her life because she was clinically depressed and didn't get help. She gave her life because she was addicted to some poisonous chemical or other and didn't get help. She gave her life because she was mentally ill and didn't get help. There is nothing romantic about any of those deaths -- they're brutal, tragic, and terrible, and that's how those deaths should always be remembered: as the bitter, irreversible destruction of future art.

 

[DamianM]

It wasn't made glamorous, they were simply depicted
It is not a fact that they didn't choose those more violent methods because they are clearly depicted in the photographs.
if you have seen the images there is that of the gun and that of jumping off a building. the two most literal photographs.
I see people twisting what the intention of the images were into there own interpretation. Calling them "glamorous", when they clearly are not.
They are simple straight photographs of an important aspect of a persons lives.


The Christ story is something to really touchy, because people take offense quickly even though I have every right to talk about it the way I do.
But if you really look at the story, it was simply a suicide mission that is justified by calling it a sacrifice and a whole mess of mythology thousands of years old.


Again I ask the question that if they were not photographs, would it change anything?

 

[sheeplady]

I think as a society we have a mixed reaction to suicide. On the one hand, we flirt with the idea that it's a romantic, artsy, glamorous thing to do. Anyone who has lost a family member or friend to suicide or witnessed an attempt or the aftermath knows this is NOT true. On the other hand, it's seen as embarrassing and a personal weakness to try to take your own life by some judgmental idiots- the kind who say you won't get into heaven if you commit suicide, etc.

Both views miss the mark horrifically. The first makes the survivors feel bad. The second keeps those who need help from seeking it.

 

[DamianM]

What's more, we need, as a culture, as a society, to stop romanticising suicide, whether it's an immediate death by rope or gun or razor or pills, or the slow death of drug abuse. Ohhhhh, what a tragic figure she was, oh, she gave her life for her art.

No she didn't. She gave her life because she was clinically depressed and didn't get help. She gave her life because she was addicted to some poisonous chemical or other and didn't get help. She gave her life because she was mentally ill and didn't get help. There is nothing romantic about any of those deaths -- they're brutal, tragic, and terrible, and that's how those deaths should always be remembered: as the bitter, irreversible destruction of future art.

The problem is that it is not that Black and white.
There are different reason why a person decides this.

Sometimes its spontaneous.
Sometimes it is to have control over at least one aspect of their lives.

 

[DamianM]

I think as a society we have a mixed reaction to suicide. On the one hand, we flirt with the idea that it's a romantic, artsy, glamorous thing to do. Anyone who has lost a family member or friend to suicide or witnessed an attempt or the aftermath knows this is NOT true. On the other hand, it's seen as embarrassing and a personal weakness to try to take your own life by some judgmental idiots- the kind who say you won't get into heaven if you commit suicide, etc.

Both views miss the mark horrifically. The first makes the survivors feel bad. The second keeps those who need help from seeking it.

The thing is I know of those who have opted to this choice, but I never judged them as weak when I met them. I tried to listen and understand

 

[LizzieMaine]

I suggest reading the Jezebel post that started the controversy. Especially the comment from the relative of Iris Chang, one of the authors depicted in the spread. She said it more eloquently than any of us could.

(Be warned that the actual photos from the spread appear in this post, and note that some commenters -- with whom I agree -- found it just as exploitative for Jezebel to include them as it was for Vice to create them.)

 

[sheeplady]

Chang has an eleven year old son. He was two when she killed herself. They also included the stockings they show the woman hanging herself with in the fashion credits.

Because we all know we want the pair of stockings a woman killed herself with. Creepy.

No listing of the author's works. Instead they list the fashion pieces. No mention of family or struggles with depression. And apparently they called foundations and other organizations to get dirt on what these women were wearing and the particulars of how they died; without being truthful that it was a "fashion spread."

I think I'm going to be sick.

There's also this great interview with one of the models: http://jezebel.com/model-from-vice-suicide-shoot-speaks-i-was-uncomforta-514323121

And to make this all so much better, the models were unpaid because it was an editorial piece (not surprising, modeling is one of the least female-friendly occupations in the world). Nice to use women all around to sell your crap.

 

[DamianM]

I say it again, its NOT a fashion spread, it is an editorial spread.
Editorials normally are made out of the photographers/ creative directors pocket
so no one gets paid.
And it wasn't used to sell ANYTHING.
Vice is not a fashion magazine and doesn't sell clothes.