A2, G1 terminology?

[lkalliance]

Hello, all,

New signup here, and very much out of my depth. I've long wanted a leather "bomber jacket" without really considering what a "bomber jacket" even is, except I kind of knew it when I saw it. But almost all the ones I see online have photos of the jackets themselves, without people in them. Which is not how I intend to wear one. I would actually be IN the jacket.

So, a little research (most of which was on these very fora) shows me that the A-2 and G-1 style jackets are the common types. I've got a couple of questions, though, perhaps someone (or multiple someones) can answer or on which they can opine.

--I understand that the G-1's have a "split-back" construction. I can see what that means as far as how it looks, but I don't really understand how that works in practice, how it feels.

--US Wings (as an example, I'm not married to them, but they are right in my budget wheelhouse and they do appear to be current on their kickbacks to Google) lists various cuts, like "Military" and "Normal" and others. As I understand it, "Military" is pretty tight. I'm 6'0", fairly narrow shoulders, but a little, er, how shall I put this delicately, um...fat. Comfortable? Big-boned? No, fat. Or, you would probably say "overweight". As such I often buy my clothes a little oversized and blousy, which is comfortable and, I think, attractive on my somewhat ample frame. But I'm beginning to wonder if either of these jackets will be comfortable for me. Could they be worn looser?

I think "bomber jacket" and I think leather, with knit cuffs and waist, the front cargo pockets, that kind of thing. I think more of the back of the G-1, but it seems the G-1 is intended to be a tighter fit, which I might not like. Am I inferring correctly? (The G-2 actually looks like the right combination, but the ones on US Wings lack the side hand warmers and are anyway more expensive).

I''m not a collector or buff...I just have always liked the look. I'm happy with inauthentic yet useful diversions from the true article like handwarmer pockets and inside pockets and such. I guess in the end the question is that I'm used to a loose fit and not a tight fit, so does that leave me out in the cold on these styles?

Oh, one other question: I see the US Wings A-2 2000 in the goatskin and in the Vintage cowhide. I love how the cowhide looks, but I was advised by someone that with those jackets even the tiniest bit of water darkens the material, and that it's not really treatable for greater water resistance. I live in Minnesota, it gets snowy here (though it's a pretty dry snow most of the time due to the cold climate) and I'll want to be wearing the jacket often...should I heed that warning? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that has used this product.

Again, I don't mean to be trumpeting US Wings...they seem to have the kind of style that I'm looking for (or they seem to be really good at photographing it in a way I find pleasing) and they really hit my price point. Sorry for the rambling post!

 

[ykurtz]

Plenty of A2 experts on the site who I'm sure will be able to chime in. However, A2's are relatively thin jackets and not a 'first pick' for Minnesota. When it drops below, say, 40 you'll need to layer and after a while, it won't be much help. A2's are pretty much leather windbreakers. There are some A2-like jackets, though, that come with Thinsulate linings, etc., which might make them more practical in the cold....That said, perhaps for Autumn and Spring, the A2 would work out well.

You might also want to check out ANJ-4s for the winter. Plenty of pics on the site showcasing those.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'll take the first question. G-1s have what is known as an action back. Extra leather panels are sewn into the back and arms where they join at the shoulders. These panels expand and allow the joint more range of movement than would exist without them. An internal elastic band "retracts" the panels when the wearer's arms are not extended thereby preserving the jacket's trim appearance. A-2s don’t have this feature and depend on a fuller cut to allow for comfortable movement of the arms. This may be a collector’s myth, but I’ve always heard that the predecessor of the G-1, the M-422, was designed with an action back because it was expected that every Naval Aviator would have to swim in his jacket at least once during his career.

AF

 

[lkalliance]

I'll take the first question. G-1s have what is known as an action back. Extra leather panels are sewn into the back and arms where they join at the shoulders. These panels expand and allow the joint more range of movement than would exist without them. An internal elastic band "retracts" the panels when the wearer's arms are not extended thereby preserving the jacket's trim appearance. A-2s don’t have this feature and depend on a fuller cut to allow for comfortable movement of the arms. This may be a collector’s myth, but I’ve always heard that the predecessor of the G-1, the M-422, was designed with an action back because it was expected that every Naval Aviator would have to swim in his jacket at least once during his career.

AF

Love narrative detail like that.

What you said about A-2's requiring a fuller cut for the same range of motion is heartening, though: if I'm looking for a fuller cut to begin with then it all falls into place.

ykurtz, I get what you mean about the jacket being thinner; my body thermostat though tends to run a little hotter than most, and a t-shirt-hoodie-jacket layering would probably work in most environments for me. Which begs the question that perhaps I haven't asked correctly: how "full" is an A-2's cut? Would it accommodate a sweatshirt underneath, or would I find that tight and restricting?

 

[ykurtz]

ykurtz, I get what you mean about the jacket being thinner; my body thermostat though tends to run a little hotter than most, and a t-shirt-hoodie-jacket layering would probably work in most environments for me. Which begs the question that perhaps I haven't asked correctly: how "full" is an A-2's cut? Would it accommodate a sweatshirt underneath, or would I find that tight and restricting?

A2's from A2 repro companies base their jackets on the actual jacket patterns used in the 30s-40s, so they are cut closer, i.e. 'military', per your observation in your OP. These companies often allow you to submit your measurements, though, and some are willing to adjust things to accommodate a wider midsection. If you are not into A2 repros, the modern versions of A2/G1s are to my understanding cut more generously all around to accommodate the larger population of today. That might be the way go, e.g. US Authentic, Cockpit USA, et al. Most of these companies will allow returns on off the rack merchandise, so you could always obtain a jacket in your size, try it on, and send it back/exchange it if it doesn't work for your build.

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Hi Ikalliance,

I was in the same boat as you a few weeks back and did a heap of research on this forum into particularly G1 jacket. Apparently the bi-swing back of the jacket is designed that way so that it provided more movement in a cramped cockpit and also allowed pilots who came down in the drink more movement and ability to swim.
I think I am a similar design as yourself and am built more for comfort than speed these days (6'3, 204lbs and 43 chest) but think the design of the G1 will be fine as I think that clothing which is cut on the blousy side actually makes us look fatter and more shapeless. I tend to go for "fitted" cut as it can give you a bit of a waist and I think the knitted waist band of the G1/A2 will do this.

There are a stack of cracking manufactures on your side of the world who make G1's in your price range. Have a look at Cockit, Gibson Barnes and Alpha Industries who all do the jacket for around $400-$500. Gibson and Barnes (who I've gone with) apparently make an imense jacket for the price and do cut them on a slightly larger shape. Their customer service is top notch too and answered a stack of questions I had imediately. They also manufacture all their jackets in San Diego so you can support your US workers while your at it. The down side with G&B is that I think they manufacture seasonally so I think they are low on many G1 sizes and as a result I have to wait until April for my jacket. Thats fine tho as the Australian winter does not really start until around June.
As for skin types, there are many who can answer this question better than me but I think Goat is what G1's were originally made from and is a great skin being pretty supple, hard wearing and has a nice grain after a time . I think cow is tough too but takes an age to break in and is of a poorer quality.

I think at the end of the day you just have to jump in, order one and see how it looks on you. Forums are great but the dont half muddy the waters with all the personal oppinions, valid as they may be. Also, when you get one, post some pictures with you in it so others have something to work with.

all the best and good luck.

Garry

 

[Atticus Finch]

As compared to the G-1, the A-2 is cut fuller in the body. Stated conversely, the G-1 is not very forgiving of people who are thick in the middle. WWII A-2s had higher arm holes and trimmer torsos than the currently issued version, but both were (are) more blousy than G-1s.

BTW…there was never a “military fit” in the military. That is a concept that was recently invented by reproduction jacket manufacturers. Aviation Cadets wore whatever jacket was handed to them by the quartermaster’s mate…and there were no long or short sizes, only regulars.

Ykurtz is correct about the insulating properties of G-1s and A-2s. I've always said that the only time those jackets are warm is when the temperature is above eighty degrees.

AF

 

[Stormpaw]

From what you said, I would check out Gibson and Barnes "Civil G-1". I have heard many good things about G&B (not so much for US wings). The civil and modern military versions are not as slim fitting as the historical WW2 reproductions, and the civil models add hand warmer pockets and some other niceties that you might find useful (putting you hands in your pockets while in uniform is bad form don't you know). However, as others have said they still aren't overly warm jackets.

Goatskin is a very tough leather that is also light and flexible. Cowhide needs to be much thicker as it isn't as tough a leather and therefore generally more stiff and heavy. Horsehide, I believe, is tougher than cowhide, but also generally very thick and heavy.

I hope that helps.
Stormpaw

 

[lkalliance]

Thanks thus far for the info! That current A-2's are more full-cut than repros, or G-1's, that seems a promising way to go. I do appreciate the mixed reputation of US Wings, and I'd seen the Civil G-1 and Civil A-2 models at Gibson and Barnes, but I'm afraid the price point that makes me go, "Hey, you know what, I think I can swing that!" is less than what I see at other retailers, at least that I've seen thus far.

I will have to make a judgement call on the warmth angle. Being in Minnesota I've got plenty of jackets, but nothing I really like to put on during the spring and fall and early winter, and I'm confident this weight will serve me well, though not 12 months a year. Based on the things I've learned in this thread, I'm leaning towards the A-2 2000 series, but no longer the Vintage. It's down to $175 now, so probably just a little north of $200 after tax and shipping. Stormpaw's comparison of cowhide vs. goatskin was very useful!

Atticus and Flashheart, I think you nailed what I was looking for as far as evaluating what would work with my body shape. I wish the US Wings G-2 weren't lambskin, I'd look more carefully at that, just as I wish the Civil G-1 and Civil A-2 were a hundred or two dollars less expensive. You get what you pay for, I realize.

I'll still be lurking until I pull the trigger, and I'll post when this all works to its conculsion. Thanks, everyone!

 

[Jaguar66]

If you are interested in the look of the A2, and G1 jackets, you might be interested in the LL Beans Flying tiger jacket, http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23786?page=flying-tiger-jacket-thinsulate, which can be had with or without thinsulite insulation.

For a warm sheepskin lined jacket checkout this one. http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23787?feat=23786-ppxs&dds=y

They have been featuring these jackets for decades. They used to come in even sizes, and were made in the US, but now they only come in S, M, L, XL etc, and make in Turkey as I recall. I own both, and they are well made, won't cost a fortune, and you won't find better customer service anywhere. They also come in black. Not an original color, but stylish none the less.

 

[lkalliance]

If you are interested in the look of the A2, and G1 jackets, you might be interested in the LL Beans Flying tiger jacket, http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23786?page=flying-tiger-jacket-thinsulate, which can be had with or without thinsulite insulation.

For a warm sheepskin lined jacket checkout this one. http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23787?feat=23786-ppxs&dds=y

They have been featuring these jackets for decades. They used to come in even sizes, and were made in the US, but now they only come in S, M, L, XL etc, and make in Turkey as I recall. I own both, and they are well made, won't cost a fortune, and you won't find better customer service anywhere. They also come in black. Not an original color, but stylish none the less.

I like the looks of it, particularly the "worn leather" one. Have you seen one of those in the wild? Does it appear like real wear or obviously fake?

I see it's a three-part back and not one-part, but besides authenticity (which is not high on my priority list, as noted), is there any reason that would be an issue as to the quality of the jacket? This is over $100 more expensive when it's all said and done, a little outside my comfort zone, but for the right garment it's something I'd do, especially since this is a long-term item.

Though there is this: purchasing from The Bean has no risk. If I don't like it, they'll take it back, no questions asked.

 

[TXFlyGuy]

Check out www.jaxmercantile.com
They have an Alpha G-1. I called them up and asked a lot of questions as to the zipper, leather thickness, any chemical odors, etc.
I almost bought it. You won't believe the price.

Another source for an A-2 is Sunrise Aviation www.sunrisepilotshop.com
Sunrise has a Cockpit A-2 at a very attractive price.

Any reputable dealer will allow you to return the item if you are not satisfied.

 

[lkalliance]

Thanks, TXFlyGuy, for the added info.

I THINK I am going to go with US Wings, USW Antique Goatskin A-2. They informed me it was exactly the same as the Goatskin A-2 2000, which was the jacket I was looking at, but hand-weathered. It's either that or the LL Bean (uninsulated) Flying Tiger. I'm at a loss as to how to decide between the two. They're similar price (US Wings would be slightly more after shipping); US Wings would have a bigger risk if I want to return it (they would not pay shipping, either way).

I asked LL Bean how they achieve the weathering, and they confirmed that it is a process of overlaying a light dye with a dark dye and then handwashing away some of the dark. Is this normal? I'm awaiting feedback from US Wings about whether their process is similar.

I'm clearly overthinking, but what the heck, it's what I do. Anyone with a gut feeling as far as quality goes between these two jackets?

 

[Doctor Strange]

I have generally been unimpressed with US Wings compared to Gibson & Barnes (much less the premium repro makers), but I would go with them over the LL Bean jacket.

US Wings at least specializes in current-spec flight jackets and makes them accurately to whatever spec/style they represent, whereas the Bean Flying Tiger jacket is merely "inspired by" and isn't worth $100 more just for the Bean name. I have nothing against Bean (90% of my wardrobe comes from them!), but I suspect that the USW jacket is closer to what you want and the leather will be nicer.

 

[lkalliance]

I've been pondering this some more and I think Doctor Strange hits on something: "inspired by" vs. accuracy. I'm not sure what I want isn't the "inspired by." I've admired bomber jackets for the look but not the fit, per se. I saw another thread here from a gentleman who, like me, had been researching, and in the meantime his wife bought him one of the LL Beans. He posted a photo here and asked, "Is this the way it's supposed to fit?" To my eye, judging just on my taste and not on the historical function of the jacket, it looked perfect. But all the respondents said it was too big.

But it is an extra $40 (I've decided to go with the Antique in the US Wings instead of the regular), and if at that I'm getting lower quality leather then it's worth considering that.

So my girlfriend, who is better at shopping than I, suggested I just buy both and return the one I don't like (she, like some other women I've known, knows how to shop; I instead know how to research and buy, which sounds similar but isn't). So, here we go: two jackets, one to be returned. It will work out financially better for me if I like the US Wings better (less expensive jacket, and LL Bean will pay most of the shipping), but I'll just have to see how it turns out.


Oh, and to have two respondents on the thread hail from Westchester (where I lived for 9 years) and Marin (where lived for 8 years) probably means nothing but is kind of neat.

 

[Doctor Strange]

My first leather jacket was an inspired-by bomber. One of those brown naked cowhide Schott jackets with a G-1-ish faux-fur collar, white pile interior, and kinda-A-2 epaulets and pockets. (This was thirty years ago, long before Schott made the fur collar removable and added the half-belt back.) It was great, and I wore the heck out of it for years.

If you don't care about having an accurate copy of an actual military style, that's fine. There are lots of great jackets out there!

But be warned: you may well eventually get hit with the I-want-a-REAL-flight-jacket bug. Then you'll find yourself working your way through jackets by US Wings, US Authentic, Gibson & Barnes, and on up to Good Wear. It happened to me! Lots of us, actually...

 

[TXFlyGuy]

I have generally been unimpressed with US Wings compared to Gibson & Barnes (much less the premium repro makers), but I would go with them over the LL Bean jacket.

US Wings at least specializes in current-spec flight jackets and makes them accurately to whatever spec/style they represent, whereas the Bean Flying Tiger jacket is merely "inspired by" and isn't worth $100 more just for the Bean name. I have nothing against Bean (90% of my wardrobe comes from them!), but I suspect that the USW jacket is closer to what you want and the leather will be nicer.

My goatskin G-1 from US Wings will be here tomorrow. Made by Schott in NY. Hope it is as good as my former A-2 from Schott, bought in the late 70's. I gave it to my brother-in-law as it was a medium, and now I wear a 42R.

If the jacket from US Wings is not equal to the quality of my G&B, it will be sent back. It was actually a bit more expensive than the G&B G-1.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Regarding that "made by Schott in New York"... My observation after being on jacket forums since 2000 is that a large number of low-to-mid-price leather jackets seem to eminate from a single factory in New Jersey. They carry labels like US Wings, Legendary, Schott, maybe also Cockpit, and other brand names (e.g., Sporty's). That's one reason that there are only superficial differences among many brands of a given style in roughly the same price range.

Gibson & Barnes is typically a cut above these brands, so I'm curious to hear how you think the USW compares...

 

[lkalliance]

My first leather jacket was an inspired-by bomber. One of those brown naked cowhide Schott jackets with a G-1-ish faux-fur collar, white pile interior, and kinda-A-2 epaulets and pockets. (This was thirty years ago, long before Schott made the fur collar removable and added the half-belt back.) It was great, and I wore the heck out of it for years.

If you don't care about having an accurate copy of an actual military style, that's fine. There are lots of great jackets out there!

But be warned: you may well eventually get hit with the I-want-a-REAL-flight-jacket bug. Then you'll find yourself working your way through jackets by US Wings, US Authentic, Gibson & Barnes, and on up to Good Wear. It happened to me! Lots of us, actually...

I can think of more harmful things to collect than nice leather jackets, lol. At the moment I will be interested in how these two feel. [At the moment] I consider authenticity to be a cherry on top of a sundae, but I do have an addictive personality, and authenticity in other areas gets me revved up. We'll see!

 

[TXFlyGuy]

Regarding that "made by Schott in New York"... My observation after being on jacket forums since 2000 is that a large number of low-to-mid-price leather jackets seem to eminate from a single factory in New Jersey. They carry labels like US Wings, Legendary, Schott, maybe also Cockpit, and other brand names (e.g., Sporty's). That's one reason that there are only superficial differences among many brands of a given style in roughly the same price range.

Gibson & Barnes is typically a cut above these brands, so I'm curious to hear how you think the USW compares...

Doc...stay tuned!