A2, G1 terminology?

[Atticus Finch]

Something else is the perceived value of the item. In the case of G&B, there certainly are more expensive jackets available. But when you approach perfection, as G&B does, the extra money spent is rapidly diminishing on the return aspect.

A more perfect hem line? A better stitch? Better knits? Perhaps. Almost all leather is imported from the Middle East, Pakistan in particular.

I agree, but with a major qualification. Yes, when it comes to reproduction A-2s, the law of diminishing marginal returns raises its ugly head pretty quickly after the $400.00 price point. But in all fairness, many of the high end makers aren't chasing perfection in terms of jacket quality. Just producing a high quality jacket is relatively easy. They are seeking perfection in terms of authenticity...and that isn’t so easy. Maybe you could say they are constantly chasing reality, knowing full well that they’ll never catch it.

And I would argue that to have an appreciation of their efforts, one first must be a long-time, avid student of original, vintage jackets. Only when you possess a certain degree of knowledge about the subject can you fairly judge whether or not a given repro maker has captured…not just the details…but the soul of the particular jacket he is reproducing.

Now, I fully understand that strict authenticity isn’t important to everyone. Many people just want a high value jacket…meaning a good quality jacket at an affordable price. And that’s where companies like G&B and US Authentic shine brightly. But these makers aren’t really in the same market as Good Wear and Aero, and to compare them with high-end reproducers based on measurements of traditional "quality" is probably pointless.

AF

 

[TXFlyGuy]

Your points are well taken. Guess you can count me in the "value" oriented group as I am quite pleased with my G&B plus US Wings (Schott) jackets. They will not win any awards for true authenticity, but as stated, they represent an extremely good example of what is available in the $400-$450 price range.

To many casual observers, that is crazy money for a jacket!

 

[Atticus Finch]

Your points are well taken. Guess you can count me in the "value" oriented group as I am quite pleased with my G&B plus US Wings (Schott) jackets. They will not win any awards for true authenticity, but as stated, they represent an extremely good example of what is available in the $400-$450 price range.

To many casual observers, that is crazy money for a jacket!

We are actually in the same boat. I have never cared much for reproduction flight jackets of any kind. I only own two...my A-1 and an Alpha B-15C. To me, the whole point of wearing an old flight jacket is wearing something that is real and experienced and full of honestly acquired character. I especially don’t understand paying more for a reproduction of something than would have been the cost of an original.

As to A-2s, I have several but none are reproductions of WWII jackets. They are all early versions of the currently issued A-2 and I doubt that I paid much more than a hundred dollars for any of them. But they wear very nicely and they are as real as the day is long.

AF

 

[lkalliance]

Gah!

OK, things were so hopeful.

I received the replacement jacket tonight. One size larger than before, non-antiqued. It fits better around my midriff, but is now too big on my shoulders. Frustrating! I can see that the antiqued one was more supple, but I assume that's something I can achieve manually somehow, besides just wearing. Any tips? In the meantime, I must consider what to do about the oversize. Perhaps return it, get the original size, but in a long.

 

[AustinTX]

I'll take the first question. G-1s have what is known as an action back. Extra leather panels are sewn into the back and arms where they join at the shoulders. These panels expand and allow the joint more range of movement than would exist without them. An internal elastic band "retracts" the panels when the wearer's arms are not extended thereby preserving the jacket's trim appearance. A-2s don’t have this feature and depend on a fuller cut to allow for comfortable movement of the arms. This may be a collector’s myth, but I’ve always heard that the predecessor of the G-1, the M-422, was designed with an action back because it was expected that every Naval Aviator would have to swim in his jacket at least once during his career.

AF

"Action back" is also known as a "bi-swing back" (not that there's anything wrong with that!). And yes, Gibson-Barnes is known for a more, how shall we put this delicately, "generous" fit and their product is very good for the price. Also, their customer service is quite helpful. (most recent contact was Amanda)

 

[AustinTX]

If you are interested in the look of the A2, and G1 jackets, you might be interested in the LL Beans Flying tiger jacket, http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23786?page=flying-tiger-jacket-thinsulate, which can be had with or without thinsulite insulation.

For a warm sheepskin lined jacket checkout this one. http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/23787?feat=23786-ppxs&dds=y

They have been featuring these jackets for decades. They used to come in even sizes, and were made in the US, but now they only come in S, M, L, XL etc, and make in Turkey as I recall. I own both, and they are well made, won't cost a fortune, and you won't find better customer service anywhere. They also come in black. Not an original color, but stylish none the less.

Caveat: I have worked with many guys with llbean A-2's and the number one complaint is the inside lining coming loose or apart (this from day-in, day-out wear, however). On the plus side, llbean's customer service is first-rate. Several folks have told me llbean simply replaced the jacket with new.

 

[AustinTX]

Gah!

OK, things were so hopeful.

I received the replacement jacket tonight. One size larger than before, non-antiqued. It fits better around my midriff, but is now too big on my shoulders. Frustrating! I can see that the antiqued one was more supple, but I assume that's something I can achieve manually somehow, besides just wearing. Any tips? In the meantime, I must consider what to do about the oversize. Perhaps return it, get the original size, but in a long.

You are in a quandary familiar to many on this forum. Some sniff at high-end repro's. Others turn their noses up at jackets made, evidently, at "the factory in New Jersey." Others swear by the authenticity distilled from another man's flop sweats, coffee spills, beer-soaked nights laying under the stars, etc. (It ain't all dogfights over the Yalu River and Hanoi). Still others disdain anything made in China (where 98% of our daily products are routinely created). But one thing's for certain: all here have a closet stuffed full of jackets of varying pedigree, sizing, and provenance, purchased in a quest for that perfect fit or to scratch an itch that won't quite be scratched.

You stand at a crossroads: Take the blue pill, get a nice parka from Land's End, and none of this ever happened. Take the red pill, and this forum will show you how deep the rabbit hole goes!

That being said, here's my two cents:

1. The best way to get that "50 mission" look is to crawl into and out of your P-40 repeatedly, or help hacking out a rude runway in the jungle. Barring that, there's LLBean or Eastman's ".50 cal" look (that one will cost you). Most jackets in your price range are chrome-tanned (don't ask); they simply won't acquire an "aged" patina through normal wear.

2. LLBean has excellent customer service. Their jackets look good, are notoriously "generous," but through hard wear may have lining issues. LLBean will fix or replace.

3. Gibson-Barnes has excellent customer service. May be pricier than you want, but their leather and construction is very good, and 'Murican-made, if that interests you. Also, they have generous sizing and a good return policy for non-custom jackets. Consider Civil A-2 in goatskin.

4. I would avoid Pop's leather and Alpha, for reasons of quality control and minimal customer service, putting it nicely.

5. A thin acrylic long sleeve sweater works well under my Gibson when the polar vortex blows.

6. You get what you pay for, but it depends on what you want (comfort, quality leather, authenticity?). This forum has a lot of knowledgeable guys who've had their hits and misses.

7. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Others swear by the authenticity distilled from another man's flop sweats, coffee spills, beer-soaked nights laying under the stars, etc. (It ain't all dogfights over the Yalu River and Hanoi).

BINGO!! I like my flight jackets the same way I like my guitars and my women. When we're all sitting around the table late at night, I want them to be able to tell some stories, too.

AF

 

[lkalliance]

You are in a quandary familiar to many on this forum. Some sniff at high-end repro's. Others turn their noses up at jackets made, evidently, at "the factory in New Jersey." Others swear by the authenticity distilled from another man's flop sweats, coffee spills, beer-soaked nights laying under the stars, etc. (It ain't all dogfights over the Yalu River and Hanoi). Still others disdain anything made in China (where 98% of our daily products are routinely created). But one thing's for certain: all here have a closet stuffed full of jackets of varying pedigree, sizing, and provenance, purchased in a quest for that perfect fit or to scratch an itch that won't quite be scratched.

You stand at a crossroads: Take the blue pill, get a nice parka from Land's End, and none of this ever happened. Take the red pill, and this forum will show you how deep the rabbit hole goes!

OK, I've got to say...my experience on forums where aficionados gather that are expert on things about which I need specific information has not been historically good. I ask a lot of questions, I obsess over the details of research, down to a level of detail where the effort isn't worth the reward (unless you consider my own personal satisfaction at thoroughness to be part of that reward). So I often feel as though I'm being looked down on, because it's clear I don't know anything about [insert product here].

But I have experienced quite the opposite here, and I want to thank everyone on this thread for having listened and advised.

1. The best way to get that "50 mission" look is to crawl into and out of your P-40 repeatedly, or help hacking out a rude runway in the jungle. Barring that, there's LLBean or Eastman's ".50 cal" look (that one will cost you). Most jackets in your price range are chrome-tanned (don't ask); they simply won't acquire an "aged" patina through normal wear.

I went back and forth on whether that was the look I wanted. I don't think it is any more. Elsewhere on the thread someone mentioned that some feel it's cheating (my phrasing) to get a pre-weathered jacket. I'm not someone that historically goes in for physically demanding recreation, and I work in front of a computer screen, so I'm confident I wouldn't create this look on my own. And I don't think such a look is representative of who I am, which would bug me a little.

BUT in my look-sees at jackets from US Wings, I've had them ship me their A-2 2000 goatskin in both Antiqued and normal. And though I'm not specifically after the "distressed" look of the Antiqued, the leather was so much more supple and worn in to my feel, I really really liked it. I don't think I care if it LOOKS worn, but that worn-in FEEL was very luxurious.

2. LLBean has excellent customer service. Their jackets look good, are notoriously "generous," but through hard wear may have lining issues. LLBean will fix or replace.

I had LL Bean send me one of their Flying Tigers, and unfortunately by then I had already tried on the Antiqued from US Wings; the LL Bean felt huge and stiff, and I sent it back.

3. Gibson-Barnes has excellent customer service. May be pricier than you want, but their leather and construction is very good, and 'Murican-made, if that interests you. Also, they have generous sizing and a good return policy for non-custom jackets. Consider Civil A-2 in goatskin.

Gibson and Barnes is definitely pricier than I was hoping, but I'm beginning to talk myself into it, lol. I liked the sound of the Civil A-2, which (if I'm interpreting correctly) sounds exactly what I'm looking for: A-2 design cues but in a jacket made for a civilian. Well, that's me! I think I'm finally going to call Gibson and Barnes and ask some questions.

6. You get what you pay for, but it depends on what you want (comfort, quality leather, authenticity?). This forum has a lot of knowledgeable guys who've had their hits and misses.

You guys have been extremely helpful.

7. Enjoy the journey.

I had made up my mind last night that I was going to admit defeat, that it wasn't worth it...I do enjoy such journeys but usually when I can choose my route. The route I have available to me (make a best guess, order the jacket and hope it fits/feels good, and return it if not) is not the one I would choose. There are diminishing returns. I will only take the red pill so many times, and be in denial that it's a permanent choice.

But I'm going to call Gibson and Barnes and at least ask about things. US Wings has been very helpful, but every time I have to return a jacket they do not pay for the return...so as my hopes for a correct fit diminish, the cost to ship them back seems to be wasted money.

 

[lkalliance]

And I would argue that to have an appreciation of their efforts, one first must be a long-time, avid student of original, vintage jackets. Only when you possess a certain degree of knowledge about the subject can you fairly judge whether or not a given repro maker has captured…not just the details…but the soul of the particular jacket he is reproducing.

Very true of many things, and increasingly so: in an age of information, where forums like this one exist and create a sort of crowd-sourced repository of information on very specific things (such as flight jacket reproductions). Thus more people are exposed to this information, and are inspired to aspire.

 

[AustinTX]

Very true of many things, and increasingly so: in an age of information, where forums like this one exist and create a sort of crowd-sourced repository of information on very specific things (such as flight jacket reproductions). Thus more people are exposed to this information, and are inspired to aspire.

One last thing then back to my real life.

Don't know your size but currently Gibson-Barnes has on their clearance page:

Dark brown civil A-2 in 50R

Civil G-1 38R

Flying Tigers A-2 40S (very cool)

Military CWU in 46R


All about $300.

 

[lkalliance]

One last thing then back to my real life.

Don't know your size but currently Gibson-Barnes has on their clearance page:

Dark brown civil A-2 in 50R

Civil G-1 38R

Flying Tigers A-2 40S (very cool)

Military CWU in 46R


All about $300.

I saw those as well! I don't know my size either, frankly. "XXL" doesn't cut it. I'll use their guidelines to taking the measurements, and see what I find out. Thanks!

 

[AustinTX]

I saw those as well! I don't know my size either, frankly. "XXL" doesn't cut it. I'll use their guidelines to taking the measurements, and see what I find out. Thanks!

Call them. They'll give you specific measurements. Amanda went so far as to send me a chart put together by their designer when I was trying to fit my uncle in a Flying Tigers A-2 by long distance.