A-2 colors

[aswatland]

Oops! I did indeed mean AN! This is a helpful analysis Charles. I think many people have confused seal brown with a darker shade when in fact the original seal was actually a shade of russet. The wide variations in colours during the War was down to Wartime expediencies when contracts of 50,000 jackets had to be fulfilled.

 

[kampkatz]

What a fascinating discussion. Thanks for the education on the variation of "seal" and "russet."

 

[thor]

I don't think there was as much variation in the color of Navy M-422a jackets. Not sure if there was just better quality control at the Navy-contracted jacket makers or if goatskin was easier to tan and dye then horsehide, but it seems to me that Navy jackets were a more "uniform" shade of seal brown.

 

[Walter Neff1940]

Could be, but then they were handing out other uniforms in two colors; Pinks & Greens.

Here is my USAAF Pink & Green uniform ( w/ bullion wings, USSAF and CBI Patch).

 

[HPA Rep]

I don't think there was as much variation in the color of Navy M-422a jackets. Not sure if there was just better quality control at the Navy-contracted jacket makers or if goatskin was easier to tan and dye then horsehide, but it seems to me that Navy jackets were a more "uniform" shade of seal brown.

Well, the USN jackets were darker in color to begin with, so I think that made for less fluctuation and more simplicity in color matching, though I've certainly seen enough shift in dye lots within USN jackets, but they are all in the mid-range to dark range of brown. Also, in the specs. for M-422, M422A, AN6552, AN-J-3 and AN-J-3A, the color is called "chocolate brown." Perhaps this defining color term was less ambiguous absent color swatches, unless we get quite philosophical and ask if they meant dark or milk chocolate, Godiva or Ghiradelli, with or without peanuts?

 

[HPA Rep]

Here is my USAAF Pink & Green uniform ( w/ bullion wings, USSAF and CBI Patch).

Beautiful set with nice-looking bullion! I like the 1/35 scale Pzkpfw. VI model in the background, too.

 

[HPA Rep]

Oops! I did indeed mean AN! This is a helpful analysis Charles. I think many people have confused seal brown with a darker shade when in fact the original seal was actually a shade of russet. The wide variations in colours during the War was down to Wartime expediencies when contracts of 50,000 jackets had to be fulfilled.

Yup, that's the whole issue at hand that has been so exponentially perverted over decades by manufacturers, retailers, amateur historian authors, and the like. It's always stuck out glaringly for me going back decades, but in the last 10-15 years with more online discussions formed and more manufacturers having entered the scene, I keep seeing and hearing terms such as dark seal brown, light seal brown, reddish seal brown, umber shade of seal brown, etc., that it's become like chalk on a blackboard to my ears. [bad]

It just follows logic that what we see in the 1930s jackets must be closest to the original concept of what the USAC had in mind for seal brown, with small production and tighter controls on color, etc., then with the 1940s jackets, especially the 1941-44 A-2s, the colors go all over the place, matching the immediacy of wartime need and contract supply (that had to be staggering) to what was available in time to not slow down or interrupt a contract of A-2s from being produced.

I have further theorized that we see more russet jackets in a better range match of color in the war years because this was a deliberate effort by tanneries to give the army some color uniformity. The U. S. Army's standard color for leather belts, cap visors, shoes, etc. was russet brown, and when we look at these extant example types the color is quite uniform (we don't see cap visors and shoes spanning the brown spectrum as is the case for A-2s), so I think the QMC was readily able to supply color swatches for this shade and making jacket leather in this color then provided better overall uniformity of uniform. It also may have been easier for a tannery cranking out shoe leather or visor leather in russet to shift over to jacket leather and maintain the overall same or similar shade in the process.

Though the records reveal color swatches existed for seal brown, they also reveal patterns and drawings existed for the A-2, yet if these patterns and drawings were widely used we wouldn't get the contractor variations as extreme as we did such as with Fried Osterman vs. United Sheeplined, etc. I think few swatches got seen or used and the colors were derived as I said in my previous post, which is from the immediacy of need using whatever brown shades were available at the moment, and russet shades were some attempt to generate uniformity of color when it was possible, and in particular for tanneries that had been used to creating leather in that general color.

A-2 patterns are another matter. I can see drawings being part of the spec. because drawings are part of every spec. for every coat, jacket, trouser, etc. I've ever seen, but the drawings for something like the A-2 could have been very general (which I've also seen), thus you'd need the patterns to really make an A-2 in the correct sizes and to look uniform. The service blouses and trousers had patterns and you'll see only the smallest amount of fluctuation in these, most of which depends on the machinery the factory that made it had available and sometimes the month or year these items were produced in. The same is true for footwear, field jackets, parachutist's jackets, etc., and the B-3 jacket has only minor nuances of difference from one maker to the next and patterns were available (I've seen these), so it must be an absence of enough patterns or inability to access patterns readily that would explain the wide differences in A-2 production.

The patterns are referenced frequently in correspondence but most of this is one-way correspondence from Wright Field and not between procurement and manufacturers. I've never seen the smoking gun that clearly states Rough Wear didn't have patterns or did have patterns, and no A-2 patterns have ever surfaced in my explorations in the various repositories in the USA, but plenty of evidence supports that patterns existed, how much these were used is something else entirely.

 

[Big J]

Wow!
Some great replies! Thanks all! Special thanks to HPA Rep!

So, let me check I got this straight;

1. Wartime variations were caused by wartime imperatives (I think no arguments on that one).
2. Pre-war A-2's show a much greater degree of color standardization.
3. The original contracts specified 'seal brown', and had swatches to ensure manufacturers understood the color.
4. What we now understand as 'russet' and 'seal brown' are modern terms used so that we can distinguish between the wild color variations seen on original wartime jackets (in exactly the same way people talk about 'redskin' fleece jackets).

Somewhere there may be surviving swatches of the original seal brown that was sent out with contracts.
Wouldn't that be a find!

 

[Big J]

The question is short & to the point.

The answer as far as I can tell, based on U.S. Army information is not.
I photo screened just a small sample .

Basically "they" were trying their best to supply as much as possible with what was
available from the leather manufacturers at the time. All in different "shades" of brown ! :eusa_doh:

NOTE: This link below took several minutes for me to download:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...vcG7t_v4akPTqGA&bvm=bv.94455598,d.aWw&cad=rjt

this is just my 2¢, the experts may have different opinions.

That's really interesting, thank you!

 

[Big J]

The original government specification stated that the A2 was to be made from seal brown horsehide. The actual colour was open to broad interpretation. Apart from the October 1941 Aero 21996 all pre-War A2s were made predominantly of russet leather, which passed AN inspections . Most of the leather was chrome tanned. A range of tanneries were used to fulfil contracts during the War and of course within a contract there are significant variations in the colour of the leather and the type of leather used. For example the jackets 50,000 jackets made by Dubow under their 27798 contract appear in shades from russet to a darker seal brown made with horse hide, goatskin and cowhide.

It may have been easier to dye all leather used to make A2s black to establish conformity, but I suspect that this wold have incurred more expense even in the early 1930s in producing what was essentially an aviator's work garment!

Yes, cost is a factor indeed.

 

[Big J]

Here is the problem.

Seal:
View attachment 30292

Seal:
View attachment 30293

Yep, what the hell is wrong with these seals, messing around with jacket colors?

 

[Big J]

Here is my USAAF Pink & Green uniform ( w/ bullion wings, USSAF and CBI Patch).

You've got a neat collection there! Pink & Green, that was snappy, they should reintroduce it.

 

[mr_lits]

Great discussion. I always wondered about that myself, especially when you could dye 'em all black and simply have achieve uniformity.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Yeah but as has been said before - which black - grey black, mid black, deep black, pure black...?

I wear mainly black and the shades are no easier than brown.

 

[2jakes]

That's really interesting, thank you!

Thanks Big J;

My only question with regards to the original A2 jackets back then....
What happened to when folks took pride in producing a good product &
didn't take years to finish ?

I have seen films from the 20s,30s to 40s. Most films were hollywood made, some documentaries like the
original "Memphis Belle"were not.

The jackets which were new back in those years...look very easy on the wear & not heavy
or stiff looking like todays and didn't require break-in period.
Giving my choice, I'd rather take a jacket made back then with all the shoddily work over a
repro today.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Well, as our HPA rep here has said, period A2's were often shoddily made by unskilled workers and sometimes terribly badly re-dyed. They wouldn't pass today's quality control.

 

[AdeeC]

Well, as our HPA rep here has said, period A2's were often shoddily made by unskilled workers and sometimes terribly badly re-dyed. They wouldn't pass today's quality control.

I can agree with that, my Dubow A2 is dreadful quality but has time honoured pedigree and age. They were there and repro's were not. Repro's have to value add to compensate. Personally I am not a fan of black. All my jackets are browns of sorts. Black jackets look good but I am superstitious about the colour.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I wear black every day - what's the superstition if you don't mind me asking?

 

[2jakes]

I can agree with that, my Dubow A2 is dreadful quality but has time honoured pedigree and age. They were there and repro's were not. Repro's have to value add to compensate. Personally I am not a fan of black. All my jackets are browns of sorts. Black jackets look good but I am superstitious about the colour.

I am not superstitious of black in a jacket. Yet I just don't care for black . With one exception .
A used black leather motorcycle jacket that has aged to a beautiful color of browns & black that
can only be made with wear & time.
I once saw a brown motorcycle jacket that I should've bought. I know with time , it would been
nice looking.

just my 2¢...

 

[AdeeC]

I wear black every day - what's the superstition if you don't mind me asking?

Something ingrained in me by my parents who thought wearing black looked too fascist and bad luck. Several of my relatives were fascists including my grandfather and they met brutal ends. A personal thing and nothing against anyone wearing black or dislike of the colour. Just makes me feel uncomfortable.