The Official Stetson Nutria Quality Thread

[alanfgag]

That stamp doesn't say anything about "made of real Nutria". I don't get whatever point you're trying to make…

This is the stamp on the hat you purchased from Max and shared above:

A little clearer in this photo from my collection:

My point was to list the four grades of Nutria fur Stetson hats of which I am aware. To my knowledge, there was never a 5X Clear Nutria.

 

[MikeinRome]

This is the stamp on the hat you purchased from Max and shared above:

View attachment 806822
A little clearer in this photo from my collection:

View attachment 806823

My point was to list the four grades of Nutria fur Stetson hats of which I am aware. To my knowledge, there was never a 5X Clear Nutria.

If you read my latest post, I no longer think Real Nutria and Clear Nutria are on the same quality level, so I agree with you, but for different reasons.

 

[RossRYoung]

I no longer think Real Nutria and Clear Nutria are on the same quality level

It’s been long established, and you own examples of each quality. Pricing also shows, in the dozens of supplier catalogs, ‘Clear’ grades of both Nutria and Beaver hats to be the most expensive. It’s also been long established that the overall consensus is that ‘Clear’ is tied to 100% content of respects Nutria or Beaver felts.

The pricing list you screen shotted from page ‘22’, doesn’t actually denote ‘Clear’ above the Nutria prices. The section that is labeled Real Nutria does show the highest pricing, but does not compare to ‘Clear’ Nutria pricing. So to summate that Real is ‘top level’ or of a higher quality than ‘Clear’, is also incorrect.

 

[Just Daniel]

I think he is referring to this screenshot - I had to look twice to catch it.

It’s been long established, and you own examples of each quality. Pricing also shows, in the dozens of supplier catalogs, ‘Clear’ grades of both Nutria and Beaver hats to be the most expensive. It’s also been long established that the overall consensus is that ‘Clear’ is tied to 100% content of respects Nutria or Beaver felts.

The pricing list you screen shotted from page ‘22’, doesn’t actually denote ‘Clear’ above the Nutria prices. The section that is labeled Real Nutria does show the highest pricing, but does not compare to ‘Clear’ Nutria pricing. So to summate that Real is ‘top level’ or of a higher quality than ‘Clear’, is also incorrect.

 

[MikeinRome]

I think he is referring to this screenshot - I had to look twice to catch it.

View attachment 806907

Yes, that's what I'm referring to.

 

[alanfgag]

It is interesting that Clear Nutria is not included in the pricing chart in the Hagley archives catalog. It's a mark that goes back a long way (I have a Clear Nutria stamped dress hat with Fray sweatband, c.1910-1920). Size appears to be a meaningful contributor to price, so perhaps the dress hats with smaller dimensions had a different starting point in price/dozen?

From the hats I have owned and handled, Clear Nutria seemed well suited for soft hats where Real Nutria quality made for a more rugged western hat that would hold its shape (granted, 100 years after its manufacture) and brim flange with vigor. The 7x5 Clear Nutria longhair western I own (7" crown, 5" brim) is a lovely but somewhat soft and floppy hat at this scale.

c.1900 - 1920 beaver pelts for hatting were scarce and expensive. Remarkably few survivors in real beaver quality have made it through to these pages. I do not own one Stetson in this grade from this time period. Nutria hats are what we find and can compare. I have a beautifully finished Real Nutria Quality from the 1930s that is stiff as a board.

The real nutria fur hats from the 1920s are softer and more luxurious. The 1X Nutria from before 1920 is also supple. I've not seen a 1X Nutria grade hat later than 1920, nor a "Made of Real Nutria Fur" velour later than 1930. A lot of time passed from 1900 to 1940 with many changes to the hatting industry over those years. The Nutria Quality hat that this thread was originally created to discuss was a post WWII grade cowboy hat - inexpensive and very stiff. By this time, the beaver had come back.

I have one early hat that uses the original, more primitive illustration of the beaver on the rocks and the banner reading Made of Real Nutria Fur. I'm not sure I've seen another hat with this mark (shown in the Hagley archive catalog). For your consideration and enjoyment...

 

[MikeinRome]

It is interesting that Clear Nutria is not included in the pricing chart in the Hagley archives catalog. It's a mark that goes back a long way (I have a Clear Nutria stamped dress hat with Fray sweatband, c.1910-1920). Size appears to be a meaningful contributor to price, so perhaps the dress hats with smaller dimensions had a different starting point in price/dozen?

From the hats I have owned and handled, Clear Nutria seemed well suited for soft hats where Real Nutria quality made for a more rugged western hat that would hold its shape (granted, 100 years after its manufacture) and brim flange with vigor. The 7x5 Clear Nutria longhair western I own (7" crown, 5" brim) is a lovely but somewhat soft and floppy hat at this scale.

c.1900 - 1920 beaver pelts for hatting were scarce and expensive. Remarkably few survivors in real beaver quality have made it through to these pages. I do not own one Stetson in this grade from this time period. Nutria hats are what we find and can compare. I have beautifully finished real nutria quality from the 1930s that is stiff as a board.
View attachment 806943

The real nutria fur hats from the 1920s are softer and more luxurious. The 1X Nutria from before 1920 is also supple. I've not seen a 1X Nutria grade hat later than 1920, nor a "Made of Real Nutria Fur" velour later than 1930. A lot of time passed from 1900 to 1940 with many changes to the hatting industry over those years. The Nutria Quality hat that this thread was originally created to discuss was a post WWII grade cowboy hat - inexpensive and very stiff. By this time, the beaver had come back.

I have one early hat that uses the original, more primitive illustration of the beaver on the rocks and the banner reading Made of Real Nutria Fur. I'm not sure I've seen another hat with this mark (shown in the Hagley archive catalog). For your consideration and enjoyment...


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View attachment 806945

The stiffness you mention for Real Nutria Westerns may be a factor of how much shellac they added to the hat.
I'm sure I have Real Nutria hats later than 1930. I'll review them to refresh my memory. Some are late 30's hats with Lot Numbers in the 7000's.

 

[alanfgag]

I'm sure I have Real Nutria hats later than 1930. I'll review them to refresh my memory. Some are late 30's hats with Lot Numbers in the 7000's.

Just to be "clear"... the mark I have not seen beyond the 1920s is the Made of Real Nutria Fur:

The five I own are all 1920s hats with a LOT4XXX stamp.

The Real Nutria Quality mark as below appears up until WWII. This example is from the 1930s:

On the other side of the war emerges the Nutria Quality. It is a horse of a different quality.

 

[MikeinRome]

Just to be "clear"... the mark I have not seen beyond the 1920s is the Made of Real Nutria Fur:

View attachment 807063

The five I own are all 1920s hats with a LOT4XXX stamp.

The Real Nutria Quality mark as below appears up until WWII. This example is from the 1930s:

View attachment 807066

View attachment 807067

On the other side of the war emerges the Nutria Quality. It is a horse of a different quality.

View attachment 807068

OK, I didn't know you were differentiating between Real Nutria and Made of Real Nutria,.

 

[alanfgag]

OK, I didn't know you were differentiating between Real Nutria and Made of Real Nutria,.

Yes. The mark that contains the words "made of Real Nutria Fur" is distinctive and perhaps era specific (<1930). Marks that are era specific interest me.

 

[MikeinRome]

Yes. The mark that contains the words "made of Real Nutria Fur" is distinctive and perhaps era specific (<1930). Marks that are era specific interest me.

I agree about using anything and everything to help date hats and that might help if you have a hat with an unreadable Lot Number, etc.
I've never thought to specifically make a note of when my Made of Real Nutria hats were made, relative to that particular logo on the sweatband.

 

[MikeinRome]

Stetson Real Nutria, 3 inch brim, 6 inch open crown. About 1940 hat because it has the 3 small panel mfg tag but no Lot Number on sweatband. Sweatband joint isn't stitched. This hat and the following one came from the same seller and shown as received. Sending both to be cleaned.

I'm thinking now that this is about a 1920's hat instead of around 1940 or so, after discussing these Real Nutrias with Alan the other day. I might be wrong about this one having a small mfg tag, I'll recheck that.
OK, I've taken another look, and I'm adding another photo of the large tag. Also a photo of numbers hand-written inside the hat 3 times. 4966, possibly the Lot Number? and that would be an early to mid 1920's number. Perhaps the hat was worked on or rebuilt at some point, but they certainly wanted to preserve this number, unless it's a work order number.
There is some faint ink stains on the sweatband where the Lot Number should be, but it's so faint it's impossible to tell if it's a Lot Number or what it's from.

 

[alanfgag]

I'm thinking now that this is about a 1920's hat instead of around 1940 or so, after discussing these Real Nutrias with Alan the other day. I might be wrong about this one having a small mfg tag, I'll recheck that.

Yes, I think you can subtract at least a decade on this one. From the picture, the manufacturing tag appears to be the full sized three panel used back to 1900 (or earlier) and not the narrow variant used briefly late 1930s-early 1940s.

 

[alanfgag]

This is the latest (by LOTXXXX) of the hats I've owned with the "Made From Real Nutria Fur" oval mark. Perhaps c.1930.

 

[alanfgag]

I've owned a couple of Stetson hats that mix the Clear Nutria and Real Nutria marks. All have been late in the era (shortly before WWII) and could be a using up of supplies, or they could be parts mixed in a period renovation (I don't believe that to be the case with this example) or perhaps... the Clear Nutria and Real Nutria Quality could be marketing equivalents and not mutually exclusive grades at a certain point in brand history. I'm not "Real Clear"...

This hat is late 1930s-early 1940s.

 

[MikeinRome]

This is the latest (by LOTXXXX) of the hats I've owned with the "Made From Real Nutria Fur" oval mark. Perhaps c.1930.


View attachment 807962


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Of course it's not an exact science, but your Lot Number in the 5400's I would estimate a date around the mid 1920's. My Stetson Stanford 28 hat is Lot 6086. (Class of 1928)

 

[MikeinRome]

Yes, I think you can subtract at least a decade on this one. From the picture, the manufacturing tag appears to be the full sized three panel used back to 1900 (or earlier) and not the narrow variant used briefly late 1930s-early 1940s.

Thanks, Alan. I bought this hat early in my pre-WW2 hat buying, so I didn't know so much about the fine points of dating them, and I think the lack of a Lot Number colored all of my thinking, date-wise, toward giving it a late date estimate.

 

[alanfgag]

Of course it's not an exact science, but your Lot Number in the 5400's I would estimate a date around the mid 1920's. My Stetson Stanford 28 hat is Lot 6086. (Class of 1928)

That would be a very interesting Rosetta stone... is it posted here somewhere? Would love to see it.

 

[MikeinRome]

That would be a very interesting Rosetta stone... is it posted here somewhere? Would love to see it.

Yes, Alan. That's really the only reason I bought it, for it's importance as a dating benchmark. It's a Number 1 Quality hat in the BOP style with a leather hatband. It's posted in the Boss of the Plains? thread. Let me know if you can't find it. Bought it about a year ago. Do a search for Stanford 28 and it should pop up.
It's also on the Stetson Lot Number thread.

 

[jlee562]

I've also posted this No. 1Q previously. California 1922 band, lot 5066. Ironically, this hat is from Berkeley (UCB and Stanford are football rivals).




This one should also be in this thread somewhere, Boss Raw Edge "Made of Real Nutria Fur," lot 5895