Zippers

[Brooksie]

I read lots of exciting books about the history of zippers - in fact there is rarely one absent from my bedside table.

In my opinion, by far the best (although perhaps a little biased) is:
Brown, S. Rd. (1963) Talon Inc.; A Romance of Achievement. Rand McNally, Chicago, Ill.

This riveting tome describes the history of the Hookless Fastner Co (which became the Talon company) from the Hookless #1 (of 1912, which failed in practice) to the first success in 1913 (Hookless #2). The book ends with the epic Talon 42 Little Zipper of the early 1960s. A classic.

Even the little-known link with Lightning Fasteners of Birmingham, England is discussed!

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread because for well over 20 years or more (ever since I have had my first vintage outfit) I have an almost obsessive need to know what era certain articles of clothing are from, I am always asking my parents how old is this thing? So any little bit of info that I get always helps. Only the people from this forum or like minded individuals can truly appreciate what has been stated above, anyone else on the outside looking in would consider us just a bunch of nerds.

Brooksie

 

[Jovan]

Interesting thread. Thanks, ladies and gents.

 

[BellyTank]

Here's an interesting piece of reference material.

Some typical'20s-'40s zippers to aid identification.
These have been hi-jacked from elsewhere-

Credit goes to http://www.redcloud.co.jp


B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Great resource, BT!

I usually see the 30s Talon, top row, 3rd from left; 40s Talon, 2nd row, 2nd from left; 40s Waldes, 2nd row, 3rd from left; 40s Talon, 2nd row, 4th from left.

That is, the boring common rectangular ones . . .

I'm (or rather, the Baroness is) currently looking for this kind of image resource for Lightning brand zippers - to attempt a date of the zip on an evening gown that appears to be late 40s.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Dating with Zips

Baron,

I would claim to have a modest degree of knowledge of the chronology of the Lightning zip fastener, as apart from my interest in British clothing and zips in general I used to visit their factory professionally to buy zips in the early 70s. That was during the infamous and shameful 'zip wars' with YKK that got as far as the UK Department of Trade and Industry protesting to the Japanese Government about 'dumping'. This episode ultimately led to the demise of Lightning as a division of IMI.

What say you post or PM me a photo of the Baroness's zip and I'll see what I can do? On a dress I bet it's the long thin kind rather than the short fat kind of Lightning puller.

However (health warning coming up) I urge caution in using zips (and other trimmings) in dating vintage clothing as there is often no direct correlation between the date of manufacture of a fastener and its installation in a garment. British small volume clothing and footwear manufacturers are traditionally 'pants' at stock control. 'Lean manufacturing' and 'just-in-time delivery' have passed them by un-noticed. It is not unusual to find a stock of zips still being used several decades after they were purchased.

As a rather extreme example, a few winters ago I saw a pair of ladies' sheepskin bootees on sale at a factory shop in Glastonbury. The zips were alloy Lightnings of a design that I know hasn't been produced since 1978. Over 25 years and they were still using up their stock of fasteners!

NOS brass Lightnings in 6" length are still being sold by the Sefton Clothing Company, by the way.

Alan

 

[BellyTank]

Here are some I have just unearthed at home:
Some very rare..!

B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Hi Alan,

Yes, i understand the stock control issues. At least dating a zipper can give you a maximum age of a garment, though, eh? You wouldn't happen to know when this style (below) was brought into use, would you?

Anyway, finally here are pics of the Lightning zip in that dress (God, zips are hard to photograph!).

Front of the zip-pull. Lightning diagonally from top left with two lines - one longer than the other - parallel to the writing above and below Lightning:

Back of the zip-pull. Embossed Made in England:

And probably more useful for dating. Does anyone know anything about the strange spot and dash label under the maker's label.

BellyT: love that Crown zip. Very cool.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Lightning zipper

Baron,

Yes, trimmings are often useful for giving an 'earliest' date.

Let's see if we can date this zip. I hadn't expected a dress zip to be this pattern. A typical Lightning slider shape - round at the top. They were like that from the 40s to the end of production, so little to go on there. The 'Made in England' shows that it was a Witton product rather than Canadian or Welsh. It looks from the photo to have a mix of die-cast and pressed construction, which makes it later than the 40s. This is backed up by the design of the stops - until the 50s they were usually 'c' shaped. What dates it most accurately is probably the puller design - the diagonal bars on a rectangular puller were used from the late 1950s/early 1960s. That would be my best guess as an early date. I have a fascinating booklet called 'Fit a Zip' published by Lightning in their IMI days that shows the same design. The booklet is after 1962 as the group became IMI in that year and features the logo from that period until the late 1960s.

Incidentally, the booklet shows a type of zip I have never seen - a trouser zip with a lateral curve at the closed end to follow the curve of the lower fly (like a letter 'J'). The blurb says that it keeps the front of the pants flatter. Have you ever come across one? <Edit - happened upon one>. No, that sound almost as bad. Found one? Better! Thanks BT

Alan

 

[BellyTank]

Care to re-phrase..?

I would concur with your assessment of the Baron Kurz' Lightning brand.

B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

Lightning

Here is a similar but earlier (cruder) version from the 1950s/early 60s.

Alan

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Incidentally, the booklet shows a type of zip I have never seen - a trouser zip with a lateral curve at the closed end to follow the curve of the lower fly (like a letter 'J'). The blurb says that it keeps the front of the pants flatter. Have you ever come across one? <Edit - happened upon one>. No, that sound almost as bad. Found one? Better! Thanks BT

Alan

Alan,

Can you post a pic of the zip in the booklet?

cheers,

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Lightning zips

Baron,

It's a description and a diagram (of how to install one). I'll see if I can find the booklet tonight...

Meanwhile...for your enjoyment, here's the bad boy of British zips - the 1940s Lightning, as fitted to WW2 Irvin and early bike jackets (this is on a Belstaff). The words rough, big and industrial spring to mind. When people on other forums call the RiRi's that ELC uses on its Irvin copies 'accurate', it brings a smile to my face...

Alan

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Tip Top. Now THAT is a zipper! :eusa_clap

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

The Lightning Curved Trouser Zip...

Alan,

Can you post a pic of the zip in the booklet?

cheers,

bk

One has to assume that it is the zip that is curved, not the trousers. Note that the puller is the narrow variety, which is what I would have expected your lady's dress to have. Here it is:

Just to add that I have examined the flies on all my pairs of trousers (!) from the 40s, 50s and 60s and although I found a number of them with Lightning zips, none of them were of the type shown above. I'd like to find an example just for tailoring interest.

Alan
Alan

 

[Dinerman]

Here's a Lightning off my curling sweater. I noticed it when I wore it today.

 

[Bill Taylor]

I read somewhere and now can't remember where that English(UK) tailors were slower to use zippers than the US. Expecially more exclusive tailers. The article also said that at first there was some "resistence" to zippers by buyers. Appears to me zippers first appeared on men's pants in the 30's on less expensive men's toursers (Sears Roebuck,"Monkey Wards", etc.) That same article also said that some fine tailers believe that button fly trousers lie better and look better than zipper flies. Clearly, using a zipper is a cost cutting method. It's much quicker to sew in a zipper rather than make buttonholes and sew on buttons. That's one, but only one, of the reasons that Levi 501s are so much more expensive than other Jeans. And I only wear 501s - the others just don't make it.

Also, I think there was a real hold out on using zippers for formal wear (Tux pants). I had a tux in high school in the 40's and it had a button fly. I still have a tux from my college days and it also has a button fly. (actually, I still wear that one some because it is better made and looking than my newer tuxes. My newest tux, about 5 or 6 years old, is a Ralph Lauren Polo and it has a zipper fly. It also doesn't fare too well in looks when compared to my older tuxes, especially the material. The thinner material on the Polo is cooler, though.

I wonder if really fine tuxes, even today, are made with button flies rather than zippers? I haven't checked the landscape lately and the Polo was expensive enough as it was, but it's not a really finely made garment. Crappy workmanship. Probably made in China and imported by WalMart for Polo!

 

[dakotanorth]

Curved zippers??

Based on my experience with making pants, the zipper is not curved, and don't think it needs to be. The diagram shows things that way b/c its the only way to get the seat of pants to lay flat. Sewing is ALL about laying things flat.
Besides, my instincts tell me that to curve a zipper, the lower teeth might have to be shaped on a radius turn rather than inline. Maybe not, but flexing a zipper to one side increases the chance of the teeth popping loose.

 

[BellyTank]

But the zipper in the pictured above IS curved.

It would help the front of the trousers to follow their natural contour,
as the fly descends toward the crotch seam, allowing a natural curve.

But one would wonder how "curved" a zipper can be, when it has the same number of teeth on both tapes...


B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

Correct BT, the zipper in the booklet is curved, and repeated reference is made to that as a selling point - that it makes it easier to lay it flat. And they are common enough on a larger scale - on tents for instance. They work OK.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Here's a Lightning off my curling sweater. I noticed it when I wore it today.

That's a Canadian Lightning, I think.

Alan