Your Most Disturbing Realizations

[tonyb]

Anyone who thinks “the trades” don’t involve brains has never attempted that sort of work himself.

 

[Harp]

Anyone who thinks “the trades” don’t involve brains has never attempted that sort of work himself.

I recently watched Manchester By The Sea, a lovely film set in coastal New England.
The protagonist assumes guardianship of his sixteen-year old nephew who adamantly
states he "is not going to college." His nephew intends to become a fisherman like his dad.
College is not for every kid and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar trade skill or similar option.

Please read my full post as listed above, and you will see that I remarked that college
was not for every kid and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar trade skill or similar option.

I never said anything, nor implied, that trades do not require brains.

And for the record, college summers were spent working construction; roofing;
and service aboard a Lake Michigan trawler.

 

[tonyb]

Please read my full post as listed above, and you will see that I remarked that college
was not for every kid and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar trade skill or similar option.

I never said anything, nor implied, that trades do not require brains.

And for the record, college summers were spent working construction; roofing;
and service aboard a Lake Michigan trawler.

And I never suggested you did. You assume waaay too much. I wasn’t responding directly to what you wrote (others have weighed in here as well, you know), nor did I disagree with it.

And then, as is your wont, you take it as another opportunity to blow your own horn.

 

[Harp]

And I never suggested you did. You assume waaay too much. I wasn’t responding directly to what you wrote (others have weighed in here as well, you know), nor did I disagree with it.

And then, as is your wont, you take it as another opportunity to blow your own horn.

On second glance you are right, and I stand corrected. My apology for mistaken inference.

However, if I erred and committed the sin of supposition, candor suggests reply to your caustic
sarcastic nature, as is your want; at least as such is directed towards me. Perhaps I erred too
quickly due past comment, perhaps not. As I told you once before I am, and remain uninjured.

 

[Zombie_61]

I recently watched Manchester By The Sea, a lovely film set in coastal New England.
The protagonist assumes guardianship of his sixteen-year old nephew who adamantly
states he "is not going to college." His nephew intends to become a fisherman like his dad.
College is not for every kid and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar trade skill or similar option.

I agree completely. Even as early as 1975-1979 when I was going through high school the teachers were pushing college and "the need for a college degree if you want to earn enough money to have a decent life". Any of us who suggested otherwise were met with derision and a dismissive "Good luck with that" sort of comment as if those of us who didn't want to sit in a cubicle for eight hours a day weren't worth talking to because we would surely wind up in the slums or the streets. Okay, so my wife and I have never been wealthy, but we've always had shelter, clothes, food, transportation, the various insurances, and the lowest we sunk for housing was "The 'Burbs".

 

[Harp]

I agree completely. Even as early as 1975-1979 when I was going through high school the teachers were pushing college and "the need for a college degree if you want to earn enough money to have a decent life". Any of us who suggested otherwise were met with derision and a dismissive....

I was a lousy student, disciplinary issues, school basically bore me. The Army turned me around
and I aced college on the GI Bill, regret that it took so long. But college itself isn't the golden key
to prosperity people ascribe to it, a person who has some understanding of himself is equally
prepared for life.

 

[EngProf]

The next smug neckbeard who says "Learn to code!" as though it's an all-purpose solution to everything is going to get a boot in the head from me. Wait'll the robots "learn to code," and see how you like standing in line down at the food pantry.

The "learn to code" and life will be fine" mantra is said mostly by teachers and politicians who don't know how to code and have never done it themselves.
Coding is the high-tech/IT version of the assembly-line worker, and it involves a lot of drudgery.
I "coded" some myself, back when it was called "programming", and it was necessary then to get some specialized computer tasks accomplished.
These days, if you are doing real engineering, there are off-the-shelf software packages that will handle the vast majority of technical tasks.
I have practiced and taught engineering for a lot of years now, and I haven't' "coded" anything in decades.
Computer scientists are in a separate category with respect to "coding". They are developing advances in the computer world, and may do coding of their own ideas because it's their language for interacting with computers.
This is NOT what the people mean who advocate basic "coding" for school students. It's OK to have some coding, as an introduction to computers and computing, but a life-career doing that would be a terrible fate.

 

[Fifty150]

College is not for every kid and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar trade skill or similar option

College could be for more people. Our society could invest more into the community college system. We could teach trade skills applicable to that community.

In my area, the community college has certificate programs for things like phlebotomy, x-ray tech, and ornamental horticulture. Yes, it seems odd to teach someone how to arrange flowers. But that is a trade skill. Someone could make a living doing landscaping, or even changing the potted plants every week in the lobby of a building. No more odd than teaching someone how to press the red button on the x-ray machine.

There is a full blown "hotel and restaurant" program. You literally learn every job in hospitality. How to clean and sanitize a hotel room. How to operate the high tech machines used for hotel dishes and laundry. Technical maintenance like electrical and plumbing. Butchering. Kitchen management. Night auditor duties. Every job from top to bottom.

Community colleges could be trade schools, as they provide the basic skills needed for trades. Nobody is doing any carpentry without basic math skills. And in almost every occupation, reading and writing can't hurt.

In our modern world, there's a demand for truck drivers. A community college could train and certify for commercial drivers licenses. These programs could be supported by trucking corporations and companies with fleets. Grocery stores all operate distribution centers and logistics. It would benefit Costco, Walmart, and Albertsons to sponsor community college programs to train forklift operators and truck drivers.

Has anyone ever noticed that a forklift operator could make $60K annually? But if you were out of work, where do you learn to operate a forklift? Where is the forklift school?

They biggest problem is with those private trade schools. They make money off financing the certificate program. Remember all of those schools that used to advertise on daytime television? The government eventually shut them all down, because they were really in the business of financing student loans. When I was a kid, we used to see them recruit on street corners. They had television ads, radio ads, and even people on the corner with a clip board to sign you up. Locksmith. Gunsmith. Nursing. Office assistant. Business college. Auto repair. HVAC tech. They dangled all sorts of opportunity. But the real money was made at the finance desk, while the skills labs were mostly subpar. They would "graduate" people with their own certificates; only for those people to not have a full skillset, or be able to pass a licensing board exam.

 

[tonyb]

On second glance you are right, and I stand corrected. My apology for mistaken inference.

However, if I erred and committed the sin of supposition, candor suggests reply to your caustic
sarcastic nature, as is your want; at least as such is directed towards me. Perhaps I erred too
quickly due past comment, perhaps not. As I told you once before I am, and remain uninjured.

You make it too easy.

 

[tonyb]

College could be for more people. Our society could invest more into the community college system. We could teach trade skills applicable to that community.

In my area, the community college has certificate programs for things like phlebotomy, x-ray tech, and ornamental horticulture. Yes, it seems odd to teach someone how to arrange flowers. But that is a trade skill. Someone could make a living doing landscaping, or even changing the potted plants every week in the lobby of a building. No more odd than teaching someone how to press the red button on the x-ray machine.

There is a full blown "hotel and restaurant" program. You literally learn every job in hospitality. How to clean and sanitize a hotel room. How to operate the high tech machines used for hotel dishes and laundry. Technical maintenance like electrical and plumbing. Butchering. Kitchen management. Night auditor duties. Every job from top to bottom.

Community colleges could be trade schools, as they provide the basic skills needed for trades. Nobody is doing any carpentry without basic math skills. And in almost every occupation, reading and writing can't hurt.

In our modern world, there's a demand for truck drivers. A community college could train and certify for commercial drivers licenses. These programs could be supported by trucking corporations and companies with fleets. Grocery stores all operate distribution centers and logistics. It would benefit Costco, Walmart, and Albertsons to sponsor community college programs to train forklift operators and truck drivers.

Has anyone ever noticed that a forklift operator could make $60K annually? But if you were out of work, where do you learn to operate a forklift? Where is the forklift school?

They biggest problem is with those private trade schools. They make money off financing the certificate program. Remember all of those schools that used to advertise on daytime television? The government eventually shut them all down, because they were really in the business of financing student loans. When I was a kid, we used to see them recruit on street corners. They had television ads, radio ads, and even people on the corner with a clip board to sign you up. Locksmith. Gunsmith. Nursing. Office assistant. Business college. Auto repair. HVAC tech. They dangled all sorts of opportunity. But the real money was made at the finance desk, while the skills labs were mostly subpar. They would "graduate" people with their own certificates; only for those people to not have a full skillset, or be able to pass a licensing board exam.

Yup. If there’s a dishonest buck to be made …

 

[LizzieMaine]

The most valuable thing you can learn about the American system of higher education is that it's a corrupt, dirty racket. That's not to say education itself is a racket, or educators are themselves racketeers. But the entire American system by which higher education is delivered to students, and the entire system by which that system is enforced, is a very corrupt and very dirty racket. Understanding that, and why and how it's come to be what it is, is in itself a valuable life lesson.

 

[basbol13]

The most valuable thing you can learn about the American system of higher education is that it's a corrupt, dirty racket. That's not to say education itself is a racket, or educators are themselves racketeers. But the entire American system by which higher education is delivered to students, and the entire system by which that system is enforced, is a very corrupt and very dirty racket. Understanding that, and why and how it's come to be what it is, is in itself a valuable life lesson.

I'm thinking about what you said about a racket, as I understand life, if you are in a gang you are a gangster, if you play tricks you are a trickster, so it stands to reason that if you are in a racket you are a racketeer. I see that you mean well, but I would appreciate it if you would choose your analogies and words better. Thank you

 

[LizzieMaine]

A racket is a corrupt enterprise run and manipulated for the benefit of the racketeer at the expense of victims who are forced into paying -- or else. I don't know too many actual educators who benefit from the racket beyond a bare living, but there certainly seem to be plenty of institutions, boards, bodies, and corporate enterprises, and individuals in the higher echelons of those entities, that do. Those are the racketeers, and that is a racket.

 

[basbol13]

A racket is a corrupt enterprise run and manipulated for the benefit of the racketeer at the expense of victims who are forced into paying -- or else. I don't know too many actual educators who benefit from the racket beyond a bare living, but there certainly seem to be plenty of institutions, boards, bodies, and corporate enterprises, and individuals in the higher echelons of those entities, that do. Those are the racketeers, and that is a racket.

Just a quick question, are you in education?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm a former journalist, who covered education for a good part of a decade. And more to the point, I personally know quite a few young people who were driven into crippling debt because they were told they had to do so in order to "get ahead in life." They're now in their thirties, and wondering what the point was. They aren't the only ones wondering.

 

[Harp]

I personally know quite a few young people who were driven into crippling debt because they were told they had to do so in order to "get ahead in life."

This student loan debt was freely chosen, was it not?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Depends on how you define "freely." "Go to college or you'll be unemployable" is sort of like pushing someone up to the edge of a cliff with a gun to the back and saying "you could choose to jump."

 

[Harp]

Depends on how you define "freely." "Go to college or you'll be unemployable" is sort of like pushing someone up to the edge of a cliff with a gun to the back and saying "you could choose to jump."

Zeus punished Sisyphus for eternity up to the edge of a cliff rolling a boulder,
but deciding to pursue higher education; and, if necessary, incurring debt is a personal decision freely chosen.

 

[tonyb]

We have to a significant degree made post-secondary academic credentials the ticket to a financially rewarding career. This is much to the benefit of the academic institutions.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^^^
Which is not to say that initials next to one’s name assure that financial reward. But it remains that to even be considered for most well-paying positions the degrees are required. Most of us who have walked in both worlds — among the “professionals” and the working stiffs — can attest to a person’s higher education being an unreliable indicator of intelligence, or even mastery of what we used to call “basic skills.”