WWII Windproof 1942 Smock

[armoldgasbag]

I am yet to find online a definitive breakdown on what constitutes a genuine Windproof smock. There seems to be lots of fakes and re-pro's around. The version I am particularly interested in is the Drab Windproof.

From what I can tell the fabric must always have a two tone weave and the label must read Smock, Windproof, Drab. These seem to be two tell tale signs.However there always seems to be variations in these things.

I have seen the following smock, alleged to be WWII. As you can see the label and fabric do not fit the criteria.

Is this a fake? Are there any definitive things to look for in this piece?

Hopefully somebody will give a good reply as I am sure it will help lots of people when trying to buy one of these.

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

By arnoldgasbag, shot with Canon PowerShot A720 IS at 2009-12-08

 

[BellyTank]

Evening, Stansfield chap.
I have had the smocks and still have one pair of the trousers.
The cloth is very tightly woven and thin and has a salt and pepper effect of sand/khaki/tan and brown(if my memory serves). I also have several of the same model smock but in heavy cotton twill, one faded khaki and one green- I assume they are over-dyed "snow" anoraks.
The one I want is the green denim version.

The (genuine)camo ones should have also been in the windproof cloth mentioned.

I imagine there were, (as happens) versions that were noted as "windproof"
but were made from different cloth.

Your photographic example doesn't look like what I think of as the genuine cloth.

HJohnson must comment.

B
T

 

[armoldgasbag]

Hello again Mr. Belly Tank, thanks for the prompt reply. I have the snow suit version. Now in the process of trying to get the full set!

My initial reaction with this version was its a fake. The fabric just seems wrong, but it looks like its some sort of military issue in which case why would they put a fake dated label in it? Theres just too many sharks around for me to trust anything.

Every genuine version I have seen of the drab windproof has this two tone (or 4 tone?) weave and this is the first one I have seen without it. There is a re-pro version which seems to have the same fabric but the pattern is different. Seen here;

http://www.solomonadler.com/uniforms.htm

This version seems to have the right pattern. Its just the cloth and the label which are confusing me!

Hoping HJohnson replies soon?! Got to make a decision on whether to buy this asap.

I have a RAF ventile smock and a Royal Navy Windproof Ventile which I will post pictures of on here over the next day for everyones perusal.

 

[armoldgasbag]

Oh and the Royal Navy windproof I have is not the version with the press studs its a simpler and no doubt earlier version. Just got to get around to photographing it.

Would be nice to know more about it all I know is it was used on aircraft carriers...apparently.

 

[Creeping Past]

I am yet to find online a definitive breakdown on what constitutes a genuine Windproof smock. There seems to be lots of fakes and re-pro's around. The version I am particularly interested in is the Drab Windproof.

From what I can tell the fabric must always have a two tone weave and the label must read Smock, Windproof, Drab. These seem to be two tell tale signs.However there always seems to be variations in these things.

I have seen the following smock, alleged to be WWII. As you can see the label and fabric do not fit the criteria.

Is this a fake? Are there any definitive things to look for in this piece?

Pegasus Militaria does a very good repro that's exactly the same pattern as this one, although the buttons on my blue one are different. He marks his stuff and doesn't include a period label, so I don't think this is one of his.

I've got one of his suits in light brown 'khaki', including smock, over-trousers and over-gloves, that has a sheen to the outside surface -- a little more shiny that the 'two-tone' effect you mention -- and that's got no label in it either.

There are currently three smocks like this listed on Ebay. One is an acknowledged repro, the others are claiming they're the real thing. Coincidence?

 

[ukali1066]

Here's the denim green one I had...sold and gone now though..great material

 

[alden405]

my brother owns about 20 original ww2 brit smocks,in cam,white and drab

there is a KD smock marked as a windproof

a drab marked as Snowsuit and everthing in between and snowsuit(white) marked as windproof

the trouser apear to be lot more standardised,some are marked thoufgh as being ventile fabric on the tag

 

[BellyTank]

Yes- the labelling has been observed as ambiguous, dubious and confusing
and the existence of re-dyed smocks seems to add to the confusion-
especially when some of these "re-dyed" smocks retain a "white" label.


B
T

 

[Dudleydoright]

Hi All,
I have several of the WW2 windproofs currently and have had many more over the years that got used up and binned.
The ones I have currently include a genuine WW2 khaki one,
genuine WW2 camo one (no zipper) and a post WW2 green ventile type one with original label and definately issued to 22.

I recently bought one off ebay that purported to be original. It is exactly the same as the one in teh original post. IMVHO they are fake. The material is too thin and not the salt and pepper weave, buttons are wrong. Label is written wrong and is of teh wrong type of material. The originals were like the WW2 US stuff in that they broke down and the ink faded very quickly. The ties are also wrong. The hood one should be a rough almost herringbone weave and the bottom one was a lampwick material.

There were of course as already noted, white snow ones, green denim ones and even a reversible white to camo one that was probably made of tent cloth as the materials were much thinner and it was a white smock and camo one stitched together.

There were also post WW2 made camo ones, the green one I have and then the early DPM '63 patt smocks made in the heavy cotton modal rather like the 60 patt camo combat jacket and trousers (which I also have).

I'm at work but could get photos at the weekend if anyone's interested.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[armoldgasbag]

Thanks everyone for all the info. I think it would be good if we could keep this thread alive and post as many of these smocks up. Im sure it will help people for future reference as there is not much out there on the net.

I also kind of need one more definitive judgement on the smock I posted so I have more power with my inevitable struggles with ebay. Hopefully there is an expert out there who may be able to shed more light on the matter?

I have one more day to make a decision....fingers crossed someone else replies with some sort of opinion.

 

[BellyTank]

Mr. Gasbag, do you think that the smock you posted is a repro by
Solomon Adler?

See here:

http://www.solomonadler.com/zbozi/51_2.jpg


Looks like it could be.


B
T

 

[armoldgasbag]

Yeah thats the one I posted to the seller as I thought the same. But as the seller pointed out it looks the same but on closer inspection the pattern is slightly different...the version on this post has a thinner neck piece and looks like the original pattern.

BUT....it looks like the same fabric though. The seller assures me its 100% cotton, just doesnt look like a 40s fabric to me. Thats what got me thinking it was fake in the first place. I trust the seller, dont think hes trying it on but hes no expert and I am sure these things can quite easily get into circulation. You can get double the price by just putting a 1942 label on it....makes me suspicious.

I am definitely not going to buy this now. Just need one more expert opinion to back up my argument.

I would have thought there would be more experts on this smock out there? Denison smocks and US kit seems to have so much more information available.

 

[Creeping Past]

I would have thought there would be more experts on this smock out there? Denison smocks and US kit seems to have so much more information available.

You can't make them speak up... Unfortunately.

Seriously, though, sometimes you come to understand that there's only a few people who actually know about this stuff, and they may not know 100%. Piecing it all together, gathering the threads, that's what this place is for. You may be one of the few people who knows or cares...

 

[armoldgasbag]

Creeping Past......Too true!

I love this smock, maybe more than any other and think it deserves more attention. But I also know people like to keep their secrets...and theres not many of them out there!

If this is not real then somewhere along the line someone has put this label on it to get more money...and thats not right.

It would be interesting to see someone attempt a list of all the variations. Also seen lots with various different zips inserted across the front...but prefer it pullover myself.

 

[BellyTank]

Well- here's another point-
I have had a few of these pass through my hands and I have a few now...
...but I have only ever seen them in 1)the fine, salt and pepper, beige brown speckle (drab)windproof cloth, 2) cotton drill, various colours, white, over-dyed and original 3) green denim, the real British Army denim, rather than drill.

The example you show, Arnold, seems like a flat weave cloth, not a twill, nothing like I've seen before on an original... but then... I have not seen
ALL original examples and possible variations.

Silvermans make a copy, what is their cloth like?

*I must add, after having a gander, in the flesh, as it were,
that the speckly "drab", S&P, genuine windproof cloth is a very fine twill-
you really have to look close. It looks to be very close to some actual ventile
that I have had.

** I must also add, that these are also one of my most favourite anorak type garments.


B
T

 

[tamoko]

Found this video.
This is Denison with hood or one long Smock? Special one person from left.
on #0.14min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ozcPuBmuk

 

[H.Johnson]

I've scheduled the production of a few of these in my time...

Oh and the Royal Navy windproof I have is not the version with the press studs its a simpler and no doubt earlier version. Just got to get around to photographing it.

Would be nice to know more about it all I know is it was used on aircraft carriers...apparently.

 

[Creeping Past]

Has anyone got a Labrador Anorak? I missed out on an ex-military item labeled as such some time ago on Ebay.

 

[Cpl Burn]

Found this video.
This is Denison with hood or one long Smock? Special one person from left.

Hi they aren't British SAS. I'm guesing Belgian SAS or paras, their smocks are really very much cheeper and also very much stronger than Brit Denison smocks and as you pointed out you can fit a hood. I had one and loved it.

Also its not Twenty Two but Two Two SAS.
I think I need to get out more.

I loved the first smock in this thread if thats what its called, (thread not smock) I'd buy one whether it real or not, however the buttons are the wrong type. They should have been small brown battle dress type buttons. Those ones look like US BDU buttons

 

[tamoko]

Doesn't have Belgian Denison six snaps on front? On video no snaps.
Other question for me, is windproof smock really special for SAS or windproof for drivers and infantrymen?