Would You Have Said Something?

[V.C. Brunswick]

Associated question - what is the significance of the 'hand on heart' gesture during the anthem? It seems, in my experience, to be unique to the US to have such a specific "salute" for civilians during the anthem? When did it come in? I have seen photos of the Pledge being recited by kids in school in the Thirties giving, eh, rather a different salute which some little Austrian guy ruined for everybody. Was the hand on heart a repalcement for that, or did it always accompany the anthem?

A friend of mine who is now deceased recalled giving the raised arm salute -- no doubt a nod to ancient Greece and Rome* for their contribution to the concept of democracy -- when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance as a kid in school. He was born in 1931.

I assume that the hand-on-heart gesture superceded the raised arm salute sometime during or after the war. Most likely because of its notoriety by the self same Austrian who, along with his Italian friend, also copied the salute from the Romans.

*the fasces motif was often used in the US as a symbol of justice.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the specific origin of the hand-to-heart gesture is more that of a vow than a salute. If you analyze the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, it's not a tribute or a salute at all. It's a vow on the part of the person performing the gesture to live up to the values represented by the flag, and the government that it represents. A salute, by contrast, is a simple gesture to acknowledge superior authority, like an enlisted man saluting an officer, or bowing your head in church. A vow requires a bit more from the person performing it, and putting your hand over your heart is the same as saying "By my heart -- my life -- I promise thus and so." It's the same meaning as "Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye," only more dignified.

Like I say, we were expected to *understand* all this rather than just repeat it mechanically by rote. It takes on more of a meaning when you look at it that way.

 

[randooch]

LizzieMaine, I salute you, avowedly. You possess a good deal of worthwhile information.

 

[MikeBravo]

I like how the Star Spangled Banner was originally a drinking song (off topic I know)

 

[MikeBravo]

It does seem rude if it was some trivial task he was performing, and I can't think of anything that could not have waited a few minutes.

Mind you, I have seen plenty of footage of people making the oath and singing the anthem and somebody had to take the film/photograph. Or did they cop abuse afterwards as well?

 

[4spurs]

Years ago when flag burning was sparking the headlines an old Yankee I knew suggested that flags be made out of asbestos fibers; he reasoned that it would take care of all of those who wanted to burn the flag as well as those who wanted to wrap themselves up in it.

 

[Bluebird Marsha]

I'm attempting to remember all the history that got stuffed in my head (accidentally in some cases, mom said I'd read a cereal box if there was nothing else available). Some of the Pledge and flag etiquette developed in the late 1800's. Just after the U.S. Civil War, there was an attempt to come up with a civilian "salute" for the flag. That one never really took off. Francis Bellamy wrote the Pledge as part of a national campaign to get schools across the country to install flag poles in front of the schools. Flag manufacturers were involved. That effort took. Some of it was an attempt to remind people of the sacrifices of the Civil War, to Americanize new immigrants, and to ward off radicals, anarchists, and communists. Which is a tiny bit amusing, because Bellamy was a Christian Socialist, which admittedly had a different slant back then.

If you have the interest, you might consider reading his brother Edward's book, Looking Backward. The Bellamy's were both part of what I would consider an interesting variation on American Socialism. Sort of a combination of Christianity, socialism, and patriotism.

And about the reporter (back on topic!), I always try and assume the best, so I'd choose to believe he was doing something work related. Discussing camera shots, sending off parade pics or interviews, etc. Just my take. And since he wasn't doing anything to interfere with the proceedings, I don't think a comment was called for. Of course, I've gotten dirty looks for not standing when "America the Beautiful" and Greenwood's "God Bless the USA" were being played.

AND... check out a picture of the old U.S. Mercury dime. On the backside- the Roman fasces. On the modern dime, it's been changed into a torch, but the resemblance is still there. That "unpleasantness" circa 1930's and 1940's certainly took a howitzer to some classical and historical imagery.

 

[SgtRick]

Would I have said something......knowing me yea I probably would. I kinda get offended by such short sightedness. Yes I am aware it is his choice to do so but I am also one of the many who gave him that right.

 

[davidg]

I agree with several of the commentors. One, he should have at least paid attention. I know people who would protest by not complying with the pledge BUT they would still be silent and pay attention to the moment. On the other hand, if you would have said something at that time, it may have caused more of a ruckus and made the situation worse.

 

[Old Rogue]

Everyone has the right to their personal beliefs, but when you are at something like a Memorial Day ceremony you should at least respect the other attendees' feelings if not the solemnity of the occasion. Since he wasn't overtly disrupting the ceremony I think you did the right thing by not making an issue of it, but his behavior was certainly inexcusable.

 

[Feraud]

On the other hand, if you would have said something at that time, it may have caused more of a ruckus and made the situation worse.

Great point. No one wants to be known as the jerk who started a fight during the pledge of allegiance.

 

[AmateisGal]

Some great discussion here.

SgtRick, THANK YOU for your service. It is very, very much appreciated.

I usually am not a confrontational person, so it probably would have taken a lot for me to approach him - like maybe him talking loudly on the cell phone or doing something disruptive. My husband, a U.S. Army vet from the first Gulf War, wasn't with me, but he told me that if he had been, he would have said something.

I'd like to give this guy the benefit of the doubt that he was "working" when he was on the cell phone, but since I had observed his body language and the way he was interacting (or rather, NOT interacting) with people earlier, I'd say he pretty much didn't care about the event itself one way or the other. A huge assumption on my part, and I would cheerfully admit it if I was wrong. In contrast, I saw another newscaster there who was interviewing people, smiling, cheerful, and obviously wanting to talk to those who were participating. She was quite professional. So maybe that colored my observation of the now "infamous" cameraman.

Again, I think the whole showing respect for others is at the heart of this.

 

[MissLaurieMarie]

Although I highly doubt it, he also could have been a Jehovah's Witness. They have been known (or, at least in my grandmother's parents' case) to not Pledge Allegiance or rise for the national anthem. Of course, I don't really think that was the answer, it's just a though.
I agree that it's highly disrespectful, but I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've often been at events where it probably looks like I'm not paying attention, but I am in fact live tweeting, taking photos or doing some other sort of correspondence. A lot of media are being asked to take on duplicate roles, and out here it's not uncommon to see a cameraman also interviewing the subject.

In close, please remember that not all journalists are scum of the earth. There were some rather hurtful comments a few pages back...

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Two thoughts:

1. It was rude.
2. But it's also not your business.

 

[Edward]

It looks like the hand over the heart originated with Franklin D. Roosevelt in December of 1942.

Aha!

Originally the salute was a two-part gesture -- you saluted hand-over-heart (except for men in uniform, who executed a military salute), and then extended your right arm, toward the flag, palm upward, at the end of the Pledge. The arm gesture was thus *not* the same as the Fascist/Nazi salute, but it was close enough to make people uncomfortable, and faded out in the late thirties. It was officially abolished around the time the US entered WW2.

(Before WW1 there was a European-style heel-click along with the raised arm, but that was too Hun-like a gesture for 1917 sensibilities and went away.)

Deary me, yes - I can see how that would play in the post-1939 world.

My own pet gripe about modern flag etiquette is the belief that *everyone* is supposed to remove their headgear. This is not the case. *Women* are expected to *keep their hats on,* as are anyone in military or Scout uniform. This was drilled into us by my ex-WAC Girl Scout leader, but seems to have been completely forgotten nowadays.

Possibly symptomatic of the fact that so many people so rarely wear hats now, the wider "hat etiquette" is not known as once it was?

This website has a photo of the original salute, and the part I copy pasted seemed most interesting. Seems to me, the original intent of the pledge was to instil the ultra-nationalism that was all the rage in Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy back when imperialism was still cool. Makes sense that most nations trying to do so would emulate the Roman Empire - the apparent origin of the original salute that would eventually be associated solely with the Axis.

The whole 'pledge' thing, particularly in schools, is something that is often viewed as slightly sinister from the European perspective, something I have always put down to the very different civilian experiences of war and nationalism in Europe and the US during the mid twentieth century. I've always been partial to Samuel Johnson's view on patriotism myself.

Years ago when flag burning was sparking the headlines an old Yankee I knew suggested that flags be made out of asbestos fibers; he reasoned that it would take care of all of those who wanted to burn the flag as well as those who wanted to wrap themselves up in it.

lol I loved the slogan that pop-artist Banksy used in some of his works: "People who enjoy waving flags don't deserve to have one". I'm often reminded of the episode of Star Trek where Kirk and his crew beam down to a planet that has all sorts of rituals, and eventually they realise that the gibberish that is being spoken is a corrupted version of the Pledge or the Declaration of Independence or something of that sort. All the big US rituals are present, but corrupted, and Kirk shows them the way by explaining the nature of the symbolism, i.e. the values for which it stands rather than simple idolatry of the symbolism itself. Really nice episode. Seems to me that all too often when it comes to patriotic displays the world over people all too quickly lose sight of the wood for the trees.

I'm attempting to remember all the history that got stuffed in my head (accidentally in some cases, mom said I'd read a cereal box if there was nothing else available). Some of the Pledge and flag etiquette developed in the late 1800's. Just after the U.S. Civil War, there was an attempt to come up with a civilian "salute" for the flag. That one never really took off. Francis Bellamy wrote the Pledge as part of a national campaign to get schools across the country to install flag poles in front of the schools. Flag manufacturers were involved. That effort took. Some of it was an attempt to remind people of the sacrifices of the Civil War, to Americanize new immigrants, and to ward off radicals, anarchists, and communists. Which is a tiny bit amusing, because Bellamy was a Christian Socialist, which admittedly had a different slant back then.

If you have the interest, you might consider reading his brother Edward's book, Looking Backward. The Bellamy's were both part of what I would consider an interesting variation on American Socialism. Sort of a combination of Christianity, socialism, and patriotism.

Sounds interesting, I'll track that down.

Would I have said something......knowing me yea I probably would. I kinda get offended by such short sightedness. Yes I am aware it is his choice to do so but I am also one of the many who gave him that right.

Well, there's the rub. The problem with freedom is that it inevitably means other people being given the right to do things of which we may or may not approve.

 

[Puzzicato]

Although I highly doubt it, he also could have been a Jehovah's Witness. They have been known (or, at least in my grandmother's parents' case) to not Pledge Allegiance or rise for the national anthem. Of course, I don't really think that was the answer, it's just a though.
I agree that it's highly disrespectful, but I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've often been at events where it probably looks like I'm not paying attention, but I am in fact live tweeting, taking photos or doing some other sort of correspondence. A lot of media are being asked to take on duplicate roles, and out here it's not uncommon to see a cameraman also interviewing the subject.

In close, please remember that not all journalists are scum of the earth. There were some rather hurtful comments a few pages back...

I did a teaching practicum at a school with a lot of JW kids - they weren't even allowed to attend the ANZAC Day assembly (which I believe is the equivalent of what we are discussing).

 

[mercuryfelt76]

I find it a bit disrespectful to be using the phone during a service to thank the fallen. I'm not sure I understand the flag etiquette, we don't have that here in the UK. We may pay respect to our war dead and I would have been irritated by the phone use too but I don't understand the part about acknowledging the flag. Had I been there I would have done as the majority out of respect.

At a was memorial service in Britain some protesters decided to burn poppies (which are a symbol of bloodshed of ALL the victims of ALL wars). They got fined £50 - which is less than a parking fine. I feel this was a far more disrespectful action and far more intentionally offensive. I wish we were a bit more "American" over here. I don't mean more patriotic, but more respectful of other people's values.

 

[Undertow]

I wouldn't say anything. If, for personal reasons, he does not respect the flag, or stand for its beliefs, or if he does not feel tied to this nation, that's fine, and he shouldn't be ridiculed for his beliefs. However, a gentleman should at least show respect by standing in silence until the ceremony is over.

I think Lizzie made a great comparison of attending a Canadian event. I would not salute the Canadian flag, but I would also show respect by standing silently and observing the ceremony.

I'm certain this guy wasn't worried about the ceremony at all, which is really the shame. He was more concerned with himself. That seems to be the rule these days.

 

[MikeBravo]

There have been some interesting points about respect for other countries' traditions and anthems. I too believe it is correct for a person not of that particular country or belief to show respect such as standing for the anthem or at least remaining silent.

Having said that, mistakes can be made. There was something on television about President Obama talking while God Save the Queen (the British national anthem) was being played; granted a small faux pas but for the leader of a country to make the mistake probably was newsworthy.

A few years ago there was also the story of an Australian girl who was an exchange student in the US. There was a big fuss becuause she refused to make the Pledge of Allegience at the school she was attending. I fell to insist that she pledge her allegiance to another country is wrong. How would an American feel about pledging allegience to Queen Elizabeth II? Unfortunately I don't recall how it was eventually resolved

 

[LizzieMaine]

A few years ago there was also the story of an Australian girl who was an exchange student in the US. There was a big fuss becuause she refused to make the Pledge of Allegience at the school she was attending. I fell to insist that she pledge her allegiance to another country is wrong. How would an American feel about pledging allegience to Queen Elizabeth II? Unfortunately I don't recall how it was eventually resolved

This is exactly the kind of boneheaded flag-worship that gives genuine, sincere patriotism a bad name -- its the sort of thing that happens when people think of the Pledge as a magical ritual and don't actually stop and think about what it means. It's every bit as disrespectful to what the flag stands for as it would be to yap on a cellphone during a flag ceremony.