Windward Goatskin Halfbelt (New Acquisition)

[john z]

Loving that, so much more style than the A2 IMO.

 

[Senicko_Spain]

Loving that, so much more style than the A2 IMO.

Much more style, the A-2 just doesn't look all that great IMO. I have been collecting and wearing these for years and finally have come to that conclusion, I must have been lying to myself all this time. Maybe I'm just fed up with the A-2 collecting and the whole collecting rigmarole it sometimes feels pointless and no longer a passion but an addiction. To buy something and not wear or look at it and then sell it, well, then that's a problem. There is a fine line.

 

[Akubra Man]

But you'll consider stopping describing it as a garment issued in the '20s and '30s, to USN Aviators...?

B
T

Oh lighten up .. this is not a scholarly quarterly. This is just a forum where people come to share their thoughts and enjoy vintage clothing and such. But if you insist on playing silly about it so be it. I will stop using the descriptive terminology: "a garment issued in the '20s and '30s, to USN Aviators" or language similar to that.
I could have posted this earlier and proceeded to argue the matter but what is the point of all that. I do not feel a great need to be right or challenge another person's epistemology. It is such a waste of emotional energy and for no valuable purpose.

So to satisfy the critics... Here are photos and a link to an actual vintage jacket of this type from the usmilitariaforum.com. I believe that they are correct in their assertions. However, I will not use their language. The styling cues are obviously similar to the jacket in this thread and to the designer made repros. The original in this case is referred to the "cloth version".

Quote from the forum ... "Here is an M-421A made by H&L Block . It is the cloth version of the M-422A"
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15380&mode=linear

 

[1stsargent]

Loving that, so much more style than the A2 IMO.

Though I am an A-2 fan I agree that the halfbelts are more stylish than A-2's. But in fairness to the A-2 it was a military issue item and with many things military it was designed to be functional and cost effective to make. With being stylish almost being an after thought at best. Also looking at dashing pilots with their a-2's on with all their gear on ready for takeoff always makes the a-2 look good.IMHO I am looking to have my own custom "homemade" halfbelt jacket made up in the coming months.

 

[BellyTank]

Oh lighten up .. this is not a scholarly quarterly. This is just a forum where people come to share their thoughts and enjoy vintage clothing and such. But if you insist on playing silly about it so be it. I will stop using the descriptive terminology: "a garment issued in the '20s and '30s, to USN Aviators" or language similar to that.
I could have posted this earlier and proceeded to argue the matter but what is the point of all that. I do not feel a great need to be right or challenge another person's epistemology. It is such a waste of emotional energy and for no valuable purpose.

So to satisfy the critics... Here are photos and a link to an actual vintage jacket of this type from the usmilitariaforum.com. I believe that they are correct in their assertions. However, I will not use their language. The styling cues are obviously similar to the jacket in this thread and to the designer made repros. The original in this case is referred to the "cloth version".

Quote from the forum ... "Here is an M-421A made by H&L Block . It is the cloth version of the M-422A"
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15380&mode=linear

Sorry to have wasted your emotional energy but this has been an ongoing controversy, with many an enthusiastic G-8/440 fan refuting historical fact- it now seems apparent that the G-8/440 could indeed be a fictional item. The jacket above, the M-421a, has been discussed here several times and is indeed a USN Aviation issued jacket from WW2. It has similarities to the M-422 (USN Aviation)jacket but the M-422 is a goatskin/leather, waist jacket, with a mouton collar, ribbing waistband and cuffs, similar to the A-2, it was never like the M-421a in the waist area. These 2 jackets, M-421a and M-422 were contemporaries.
The M-422 was originally issued pre-war, lived through the war and evolved into the G-1.

Please see this thread:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=5316

Here is a picture from 1943, of a 422 and a 421(earlier version).

No harm intended- I even used an emoticon.


B
T

 

[Senicko_Spain]

Oh lighten up .. this is not a scholarly quarterly. This is just a forum where people come to share their thoughts and enjoy vintage clothing and such. But if you insist on playing silly about it so be it. I will stop using the descriptive terminology: "a garment issued in the '20s and '30s, to USN Aviators" or language similar to that.
I could have posted this earlier and proceeded to argue the matter but what is the point of all that. I do not feel a great need to be right or challenge another person's epistemology. It is such a waste of emotional energy and for no valuable purpose.

So to satisfy the critics... Here are photos and a link to an actual vintage jacket of this type from the usmilitariaforum.com. I believe that they are correct in their assertions. However, I will not use their language. The styling cues are obviously similar to the jacket in this thread and to the designer made repros. The original in this case is referred to the "cloth version".

Hence, another reason I'm getting out of collecting. I will fight for my family, my honor, even for my pet but I will fight no more for a piece of clothing! It's just plain sad.

 

[Akubra Man]

Sorry to have wasted your emotional energy but this has been an ongoing controversy, with many an enthusiastic G-8/440 fan refuting historical fact- it now seems apparent that the G-8/440 could indeed be a fictional item. The jacket above, the M-421a, has been discussed here several times and is indeed a USN Aviation issued jacket from WW2. It has similarities to the M-422 (USN Aviation)jacket but the M-422 is a goatskin/leather, waist jacket, with a mouton collar, ribbing waistband and cuffs, similar to the A-2, it was never like the M-421a in the waist area. These 2 jackets, M-421a and M-422 were contemporaries.
The M-422 was originally issued pre-war, lived through the war and evolved into the G-1.

Please see this thread:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=5316

Here is a picture from 1943, of a 422 and a 421(earlier version).

No harm intended- I even used an emoticon.


B
T

You know lots of stuff about flight jackets ... perhaps you could have shared that earlier in the thread..it would have been a nicer way to make a point. This is the first I am aware of some flight jacket controversy. Never heard of this before. I enjoy styles from the past. Historical accuracy means nothing to me ... I am not a collector.. I just like leather jackets from the past. I will stay away from you serious collector people because you are way too uptight .. you take a simple mistake and genuine enthusiasm for a topic and with your cynicial attitude treat this though it is a high crime. Or.. perhaps it was just an opportunity for you to slap down somebody who is less knowledgeable than you and get to play flight jacket police. In any event have your fun.

 

[BellyTank]

Well, let me be the first to apologise then, if I have rubbed you up the wrong way. I have tried to be helpful.
I don't actually know so much- a little Googling will yield some useful information on historical, leather flight and utility jackets, as will searching here on the FL.

Aero Leather Clothing, in Scotland have a broad range of fairly historically accurate leather jackets from the past- they also have a US based agent.
Aero's materials, patterns and quality are generally superior to the likes of the vendors offering the "G-8s", etc.

I also favour the vintage civilian leather jackets nowadays.
Originals are still around, to be had.

I hope you find something that suits your own requirements.


B
T

 

[Akubra Man]

Well, let me be the first to apologise then, if I have rubbed you up the wrong way. I have tried to be helpful.
I don't actually know so much- a little Googling will yield some useful information on historical, leather flight and utility jackets, as will searching here on the FL.

Aero Leather Clothing, in Scotland have a broad range of fairly historically accurate leather jackets from the past- they also have a US based agent.
Aero's materials, patterns and quality are generally superior to the likes of the vendors offering the "G-8s", etc.

I also favour the vintage civilian leather jackets nowadays.
Originals are still around, to be had.

I hope you find something that suits your own requirements.


B
T

Thank you ... I believe now I have misjudged you. I offer you my apologies for my strong words and hope we can move forward. I come to the Fedora Lounge for fun and to learn and share.

 

[BellyTank]

Yay!

Welcome.


B
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[H.Johnson]

My apologies...

I fear that I may have inadvertantly started this, so I wish to offer an explanation.

My point was that some manufacturers regularly make misleading claims about the items that they sell, usually relating to the item's place in history or to some relationship to an honourable military unit (in this case 'US Naval Aviators') to which the company or its products in reality have no connection or to which they make no contribution in return.

I see this as fraudulent. In my view, buyers are being 'ripped off' by these claims just as they would be if they were offered a diamond and it turned out to be glass. My problem is that I genuinely think that I am doing people a service by pointing out that they are buying a version of something that never existed and are entering into what is at best a questionable association with military honour.

Some people, however, see it differently - in their view people like BT and myself are spoiling a sort of alternative reality in which the buyers are volunteering to become involved. I see the point. Once, my own children were angry with me when I told them that Father Christmas wasn't real, but I think it was the best thing for them in the long run...

 

[dit dah]

What do you mean Father Christmas isn't real?

Who the hell is responsible for bringing my Irvin on December 24th? I need some answers, and I need 'em now!

 

[BellyTank]

How do, H. Johnson.

Some folks do seem to become rather annoyed when you tell them the truth.
I think it's surely an important ethic for this forum and others like it- to try and
deal in truths, preserve history and expose charlatans- as you have pointed out.

Perhaps this is sometimes perceived as patronising but there is surely an obligation to at least offer up the truth.
It is impossible to "enforce" it, however.



B
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[Baron Kurtz]

H Johnson - private message storage exceeded!

bk

 

[BellyTank]

Mr. Dit Dah, it seems we may have overestimated your age...
Mr. Johnson's offspring, I gather, are all growed up.

B
T

 

[Akubra Man]

I fear that I may have inadvertantly started this, so I wish to offer an explanation.

My point was that some manufacturers regularly make misleading claims about the items that they sell, usually relating to the item's place in history or to some relationship to an honourable military unit (in this case 'US Naval Aviators') to which the company or its products in reality have no connection or to which they make no contribution in return.

I see this as fraudulent. In my view, buyers are being 'ripped off' by these claims just as they would be if they were offered a diamond and it turned out to be glass. My problem is that I genuinely think that I am doing people a service by pointing out that they are buying a version of something that never existed and are entering into what is at best a questionable association with military honour.

Some people, however, see it differently - in their view people like BT and myself are spoiling a sort of alternative reality in which the buyers are volunteering to become involved. I see the point. Once, my own children were angry with me when I told them that Father Christmas wasn't real, but I think it was the best thing for them in the long run...

Keeping things honest is important .. sometimes people must not enjoy hearing the truth. I understand the intent of the posts in this thread from a new perspective and see people differently. I have learned a little about this topic but what I have found most interesting is the breadth of knowledge people have about the subtle nuances of the different Naval Aviator jackets. Reading different threads in different forums is like laying down layers of knowledge.

 

[BellyTank]

Good to know you will be able to glean something positive from all of this.

There are forums dedicated to "Vintage Flight Jackets", (as an example)in which, many of us participate, or have done at some stage.
I feel that the sheer depth and breadth of information here, as well as the diversity of interests found here, offer some balance and context which can be sorely missing from forums which have a much smaller focus. For instance, many collectors of historic flight jackets have no interest in the actual history of the jackets, the necessity, or practicalities they were born from, the materials they were made from, the processes, shortcomings and limitations of production, or the era/s they belong to. There are surely some "whys and wherefores" that are totally overlooked, or misunderstood, when vintage flight jackets(not just this topic) are discussed purely at face value- outside of a bigger world of information and enlightenment. There are many folks here who have an interest in vintage clothing, which often includes military clothing and equipment.

As is the case in all circles of collecting, many of the true experts do not contribute to internet based message boards at all. We (as an internet community)end up with, as can be expected, the "Chinese whispers", which serve to maintain the misinformation. Googling alone, will seldom dig up the whole truth- the internet abounds with unsubstantiated, false information, which of course is further twisted by the high profile of marketing copy, such as we have discussed here and in other threads.

The loudest voice is often heard but should not necessarily be listened to.



B
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[Akubra Man]

A question

Does the misinformation have a for profit component along side genuine ignorance as is my situation? I am wondering whether the not so scrupulous collectors use misinformation to increase value of certain jackets. Has a newly discovered "rare" variation suddenly made an appearance to be discovered to be a fraud or perhaps a "Franken-jacket"? In the watch collecting world of which I have a basic understanding "Franken-watches" are treated the same as replica knock offs.

 

[Feraud]

Misinformation can certainly have a profit angle. If I can sell my low end jacket as "WWII jacket" or some such similar tag than my sale price will be raised.
Others continue the misinformation out of a fear of recognizing and correcting their mistakes. Money and ego are two culprits.

 

[BellyTank]

Misinformation-

Motives sometimes, I guess but ignorance(lack of knowledge and desire to attain it) usually. Marketing sees a lot of reverse engineering of historical fact- starting with the product being offered. Attaching a name, or a claim to a product that does not deserve it, nor reflect it, or have any tangible similarity- such as we have seen on this thread, which is quite blatant.

See also eBay item descriptions, ...ranging from optimistic, to blatant lies.


B
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