Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

[Warden]

Anyone else in the UK hear this on the radio this morning?

Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211

 

[Warden]

Governments may not be grateful but I am.

 

[Shangas]

The English and Irish nations have been fighting for centuries. But I think it's terrible that the Irish would oust their own people who joined the 'enemy' to fight another 'enemy'. One could say that they chose the lesser of two evils to fight the greater evil, one that, even though it didn't, could have threatened Ireland seriously if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain. The Irish government should've been grateful for their participation instead of just snubbing them off because they had the balls not to toe the party line and remain neutral.

 

[Cicero]

Governments may not be grateful but I am.

Amen to that!

 

[Edward]

Ha, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole! Interesting story, though. And they were hardly the first: many, many apolitical Irish boys lined up to the British Army to escape poverty and see the world over the generations.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Such attitudes crossed the sea to America, too -- there were ethnic Irish neighborhoods in New York and Boston, especially, that were openly pro-Nazi in the years just before the war. It was in these neighborhoods that Father Charles Coughlin found the majority of his followers.

 

[amador]

Coughlin seems to be the precurser to contemporary political talk radio. I quess there are very few "new" things under the sun.
I seem to recall that Irish immigrants in Texas and northern Mexico joined the Mexican side during the Mexican-American war because Mexico was a Catholic nation, bringing their home politics to the new world.

 

[dhermann1]

In the reading I've done a recurring theme has been the short sighted, almost bloody minded attitude that Eamon Devalera took toward Britain during WW II. Americans and Brits alike felt that he went out of his way to make things more difficult for Britain, ignoring the fact that Hitler's Germany would never be a good friend to Ireland to say the least. German conquest of Britain would have placed the aggressors right next door.

 

[Rathdown]

These men weren't discriminated against because they joined the British Army. They were discriminated against because they deserted from the Irish army, during the war, to join the British army. In all armies desertion is a crime, and as deserters they suffered the consequences of having deserted from the Irish army. That they deserted to fight the Axis was neither here nor there-- when they returned to Ireland they were criminals, and treated as such.

Approximately 35,000 Irish men served in the British army during WWII, and none of them suffered any official persecution as a result.

Irish government policies during WWII were promulgated to benefit Ireland, not to benefit either the Allied or Axis powers. In point of fact, early in the war the Irish government's primary concern was the possibility of a German invasion, which would have benefited neither Ireland nor Britain. That said, the Irish government did nothing to prevent it's citizens from enlisting the British forces, and allowed food stuffs to be sold to the British, thus alleviating the shortage of some food items in Britain.

The De Valera Government's attitude toward the Allied Powers in WWII was no more "bloody minded" than that adopted by Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, or Sweden -- all of which adhered to strict neutrality.

 

[Two Types]

Interestingly, there is a new book out next year by Tim Newark, that looks at the history of the Irish at war. It covers all manner of Irish soldiers - in the British Army, new arrivals in the USA from Ireland who fought in Vietnam and the Irish Army in UN operations. I expect it to be good, Newark is a good historian.

 

[Dorota]

I would recommend as well book by Clair Wills That Neutral Island. A History of Ireland During the Second World War - it gives a good insight into Irish political, economic and cultural background that resulted in the neutrality of the Republic during WWII.

 

[AmateisGal]

The FBI was keeping an eye on the Irish groups in America during the war, too. I have quite a few primary documents of their reports.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I seem to recall that Irish immigrants in Texas and northern Mexico joined the Mexican side during the Mexican-American war because Mexico was a Catholic nation, bringing their home politics to the new world.

There was even one Mexican president of Irish descent, Alvaro Obregon (O'Brien), who served from 1920 to 1924.

 

[dhermann1]

I hadn't read the story. Yes, the key word is DESERTED. If you desert, you should expect the consequences.

 

[dr greg]

I seem to recall a Robert Mitchum film set in WW2 Ireland where he works against the British in the North?
Hazy memory can't remember the name to find it on IMDB.

 

[4spurs]

I don't mean to hijack the main topic of this thread, but I am responding to a collateral issue that came up;

I seem to recall that Irish immigrants in Texas and northern Mexico joined the Mexican side during the Mexican-American war because Mexico was a Catholic nation, bringing their home politics to the new world.

The San Patricios http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Battalion some of whom were "deserters;" they are still honored to this day in Mexico and the southwest. Judge them for yourself, but remember this, Polk's war with Mexico was not w/o controversy.Here's what one U.S. Army officer who saw action in that war felt about it;

"Generally, the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory." --Ulysses S. Grant.

 

[Rathdown]

Alas, there just isn't enough room here to correct the all of the errors in the wikipedia article, so I shall confine myself to the most egregious mis-representations:

Desertions occurred in all branches of the US Military in Mexico at this time, however the only mass-desertion was that of 172 Irish men. These men deserted with their arms, and subsequently-- within days-- fought against US troops. Riley, the instigator of the desertion, was never caught, although a number of the deserters were eventually captured and hanged.

In point of fact, profession of the Catholic faith was a requirement of the Mexican government imposed on all settlers in Texas and Mexico, regardless of nationality. Interestingly, although it is often suggested that many Catholics (Irish immigrants, for example) joined the Mexican side because of religion, there does not seem to be a single shred of historical proof to back this up. Indeed, the German-Catholic population of Texas was staunchly anti-Mexican.

It doesn't matter if the deserters from the American Army are honoured in Mexico-- their betrayal of the country that offered them refuge and a chance to live a better life speaks to their character in a voice that Mariachi bands will never be able to drown out. They betrayed their newly adopted nation, and betrayed their more than 2000 Irish comrades-in-arms who did not desert, and who fought valiantly throughout the war. The legacy that the "San Patricios" left behind was the image of an Irish man who was a shiftless coward. It was their action of cowardly betrayal in deserting the army that led, in large part, to a shift in attitudes on the part of the American people, and fed the backlash of anti-Irish sentiment that existed until the Civil War. I wasn't until the exploits of the mostly Irish 69th Regiment during that conflict that the Irish were redeemed as soldiers-- and cititzens-- in the eyes of the American people.

 

[B-24J]

Mitchum Movie

I seem to recall a Robert Mitchum film set in WW2 Ireland where he works against the British in the North?
Hazy memory can't remember the name to find it on IMDB.

A little off topic perhaps.

Could the movie be, "The Night Fighters"? Mitchum is in the IRA.

John

 

[Tony B]

My grandad was one of the irish, civvie not irish army, who went to england to join up in the war and nothing was ever said about it after the war when he returned to ireland, he got more grief for marrying a woman from Wexford that he ever got for having served in the british army.

It didn't seem anything special as the options were simply stay in ireland and be jobless or go to britain join up and get a wage, end of story, no politics involved and I would imagine that is all it amounted to for a lot of the fellas who did the same thing. It was just another job option, often the only one, and nothing worthy of comment or raising an eyebrow about.

Irish men choosing to serve in the british army in WW2 might very well have been sons of men who did the same in WW1 as there was a long tradition of irishmen serving in the british army so the regular army was not seen as the enemy as so many irish families had a history of such service at time when ireland could not give them a job, the only two units that would really set the hackles on end for people where my mum grew up(just south of the border) would be the B specials and the black and tans, not the regular british army.

It was all about religion in the 1940s not nationality for most people, there were engilsh catholics in the town and they were treated with more regard than the irish protestants, my mum said they were told not to play with the "proddie dogs" but there was never any issues about playing with the english kids. All that seemed to start after 1969 when the IRA started to ratchet up the sales of thier propagana rags in the pubs but most people couldn't care less. My Dad was from manchester and my mum got plenty of comments about the fact that she married out of the town not the fact she married an english man.

If Hitler had gone to war with county Cavan though my grandad would probably remained neutral ,a few irish do hate the english but most these days seem to save their contempt for the neighbouring counties, go to the average pub in monaghan and all it is is a series of "there was this fella from cavan" jokes or the average pub in kerry and it is all "there was this fella from Cork" and the punchlines are never complimentary.

 

[Edward]

Aye, well... we were fightin' each other for centuries before the Brits ever arrived: in fact, it was a perceived opportunity to get one over his domestic rivals that led to Dermott Macmurrough, King of Leinster, to pally up with the Anglo-Normans, thus beginning the invasion in 1170... We're awkward buggers like that.

Re the op, there was a good programme on this on Radio 4 this morning. UK loungers will find it on iPlayer for the next few days.