White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

[BellyTank]

Hi Smithy-

Like older woolens, especially the military variety, the yarn is quite hard, not the soft and fuzzy. I have some old Army sweaters and the wool yarn is quite different from what we see today.

B
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[Smithy]

That's what I'd heard BT. Although I'm forsaking historical accuracy for comfort by having my jersey made with a nice, soft and thick wool

 

[Alan Eardley]

Same as mine!

Alan

J. Pick & Sons.

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[Miss Sis]

You're right Spitty, many pilots on early morning ops kept their pyjamas on and just piled things on top. I think I may have mentioned this here before but the strangest I know of was Tim Vigors who wore his pyjamas and a dressing gown on a night time interception!

fftopic: The ATS girls who served on the searchlights often piled out of bed and threw their battledress trousers, jumper etc etc over their pyjamas when they needed to.

No surprise thr RAF did the same.

 

[Speedster]

J. Pick & Sons.

B
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Unfortunately no longer in existence. They closed down in 1991: http://www.pickfamily.co.uk/history.htm

 

[Smithy]

fftopic: The ATS girls who served on the searchlights often piled out of bed and threw their battledress trousers, jumper etc etc over their pyjamas when they needed to.

No surprise thr RAF did the same.

Thanks Miss Sis, I didn't know that!

 

[Smoothoperator]

I wouldn't pay too much for one. I guess it depends on how much you want it...
I'll try and get hold of my old submarine comrades and see if they are interested in selling one or two - I assume they still issue them since I left so they can get a replacement. Nothing would beat the real maccoy. The hardest part is getting hold of the people - Submariners are naturally quite elusive. Run silent run deep is the motto.

 

[Edward]

I wouldn't pay too much for one. I guess it depends on how much you want it...
I'll try and get hold of my old submarine comrades and see if they are interested in selling one or two - I assume they still issue them since I left so they can get a replacement. Nothing would beat the real maccoy. The hardest part is getting hold of the people - Submariners are naturally quite elusive. Run silent run deep is the motto.

If you found one or two discreet folks with an understanding quartermaster, they could develop quite a nice sideline.....

 

[Alan Eardley]

For knitting mothers-in-law/grannies...

...I thought I help out Smithy's mother-in-law in her task of knitting a copy of a RN Jersey, White by putting on line a few detail photos of my own, to augment BT's photos shown earlier.

Here's the neck detail - notice how wide it is and how floppy. They are like this from new (mine was unissued) and it's not sagging through wear. Notice also how the neck is sewn onto a straight line across the shoulders, rather than being knitted onto a curved line. This (with its size and floppiness) means that the neck on an original never sits nicely like the copies. If you want it to look original, that's what your knitter should go for/

Now the cuffs and waistband - notice that they are deep (13cms approx.) that they are knitted on (rather than sewn on) and that they are tight. If you can turn up the cuffs, you have a size too big. The models in adverts for the copies often go wrong here. This is a trim action jersey, not a big comfortable sweater. The wool, as BT pointed out, is hard and scratchy. If it isn't, it isn't correct.

Now the construction details. The knitting is plain. The body is made in two separate parts (back and front) and the parts are sewn together. The arms are in one piece, sewn on the inside. The neck is sewn to one side. The edges of each part are first blanket stitched* (to stop them fraying) then folded and then the parts are sewn together with a French seam in some places and a split ('busted') seam in others. The extra sewing and folding shows on the outside of the garment as a very thick seam. Any knitter worth his or her salt will probably refuse to do this (trust me, it's ugly) but if you want it right, it's what is right. Here's where it all comes together under the armpit. * The shoulder seams are taped, for extra strength.

Now the crucial bit - the inside of the neck/shoulder seam. Note the tape* on the shoulder seam and the square patch of white canvas that reinforces the seam where the neck joins the body.

There you have it - a really tough woollen jersey. Much imitated, rarely equalled. Now I know why I hate digital cameras so much...

By the way, if anyone's Granny is planning to knit one of these, get her to PM me. It's not often I get to flirt online with someone my own age...

Alan

 

[Smithy]

Many thanks Alan! These are seriously useful especially with the tape measurements and also the canvas and join detail. Highly useful stuff there and much appreciated.

Right I now just have to see if I can get a saucy Scandinavian to PM you!

Once again Alan, thanks.

Tim.

 

[Speedster]

Excellent photos BT and Alan. :eusa_clap This is exactly why i love digital cameras so much.

I will try to take some photos of my "repro" from Eastman for comparison.

 

[BellyTank]

Hmmm... now, that cotton patch near the neck would be just the right location to stitch an epaulet(choose yer spelling) button through...

Good photo-essay Professor Eardley.

PS Alan and all, I'm sure I have a 3rd example somewhere, with an even more exaggerated neck- wide and not-so-tall... cant really do anything with it.
Like my hair today.


B
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[Alan Eardley]

The jersey...

BT

An interesting theory about the patch. In wear, it usually falls a bit further out towards the shoulder than would be suggested by your theory. I have always thought that it was reinforcement, but you could be right.

It's worth pointing out that the Jersey, White WAS official issue to some RAF personnel in WW2 - the RAF Air Sea Rescue service launch crews. They were sailors, but were in the RAF. Here is a RAF ASR crew member comforting the navigator of a 'ditched' RAF plane who has just been rescued.

Alan

 

[Smithy]

I've also seen it suggested that "the jersey" might have been issued to some FAA and CC personnel which would make some sense.

 

[Twinkle]

Haven't checked every post on here (at work) but I bought my other half a ecru roll neck for last christmas, it is made by the same factory in the UK who made the WWII sub mariners jumpers and to the same specifications. They are knitted in 100% wool and are very heavy (b*gger to wash, I have to hand wash it in the bath) but I am told very warm.

I bought his from 'The Ace Cafe' (traditional bikers cafe in London) but I know they have them on the website http://www.acecafelondon.demon.co.uk/

I hope this helps.

Estelle

 

[Edward]

Hi Estelle, how is your beau finding the washing / care of one of those in use? I've been tempted by one for some time, but the price (I'm sure £20 more than the one I bought for my dad for Christmas about three or four years ago.... his was navy, back when they still offered that option) is a little scary to me!

 

[kampkatz]

Thanks for the sweater photos.

 

[BellyTank]

That "ACE" roll neck is very tall compared to the neck of the genuine sweaters, which are not roll-necks. They are obviously two different items.
Looks like a very nice sweater though.
I have dealt with ACE, though- they're ACE!

B
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[Alan Eardley]

I've also seen it suggested that "the jersey" might have been issued to some FAA and CC personnel which would make some sense.

Smithy,

Indeed. FAA personnel would have access to it as a RN stores item.

And remember that in the earlier years of the war (RAF ASR got going in 1941/1942 I think) individual FAA fliers flew with RAF squadrons. I guess what we are working up to here is the possibility of RAF personnel having access (at least at 'second hand') to a RN issue item.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

That "ACE" roll neck is very tall compared to the neck of the genuine sweaters, which are not roll-necks. They are obviously two different items.
Looks like a very nice sweater though.
I have dealt with ACE, though- they're ACE!

B
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Dealt with them? Dealt with them? I remember going there in the 1960s!

Alan